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Thx for your hard work.
I'm really interested in getting TeamViewer installed on my machine so that I can actually work out and fix the problem.
Any help you could give me would be greatly appreciated.
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Hi, I saw this problem with Teamviewer version 4, I'm not sure it happens with the latest version.
You can download it and use it for free from http://www.teamviewer.com/download. Download the full version. Press Previous versions to get version 4.
Thanks!
Paulo Santos
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While there is some genuine concern for Dan I think most people are more interested in their free software. Here is a summary of my understanding of this whole situation.
Most people haven't given Dan anything for his time. All they care about is "free". Pay him a compliment and hope that he'll keep coding for you for free forever.
People don't care about "free" as in "open source". Few people are interested in maintaining code, just doing what's more important to them.
Granted, not everyone who uses TDL is a programmer and many programmers aren't C++ experts. But if you can't contribute directly, there's nothing wrong with paying someone who can code to help maintain a product that's important to you.
Rather than paying someone for software or time, or bartering with a C++ developer (chickens?) to get you what you want, most people are on their way to find the next package, the next freebie, the next developer who will code for the masses until he/she burns out like so many others. Then the vultures will move on to the next.
The concept of "Free and Open Source Software" (FOSS) is successful only if there is some reciprocal benefit for everyone involved. You simply can't get what you want if you don't keep your developers alive to keep coding for you. They have families to feed, rent/mortgages to pay, and other interests to pursue. Many developers honestly don't want ca$h for their time but without some sort of compensation to keep them doing what they do, it's inevitable that excellent projects like this will ultimately die.
So what can be done with TDL now?
No matter who you are or what you do for a living, take some time to find a C++ developer. Get their rates, find out what they want for their time. Help to figure out how to get them what they want to provide what you want.
Come back here to tell us that you have someone who will work on TDL for X, whether chickens or ca$h. Let other people here decide whether they will help to fund your resource.
You don't need to do this all yourself. Most people know someone who writes code for a living - ask them to find a C++ developer who can help to maintain this excellent project.
Don't just let the project die. Put it into your ToDoList to find people who will help to work on this code. Keep coming back to the Task until it's Complete!
And I think it would be good for anyone who knows Dan or might have a way to get in touch with him to find out how he is. Just let us know. And let him know we're not going to let his work here die.
If he's OK, see if he would be interested in changing his model for support of this fine package. There's nothing wrong with starting to sell open source software to support its continued development. If that's what Dan needs then people here really should step up to help keep the man and his family alive. Even if Dan doesn't work on this software anymore, I think any for-fee model should include a percentage that goes to Dan (or his family or whomever). We've been using this software for years folks. We owe the man.
If Dan is not healthy, I just think it's a shame that some number of people here are more inclined to jump to the next freebie rather than paying Dan some respect by helping to continue his noble efforts.
As to "why don't you do it, wise guy?" I'm a developer, not C++ but C# (way different), too overloaded myself to pickup yet another FOSS project, and I've just seen too much of this same vulture-like behaviour playing out in the open source world. It's starts to get to me when I see as many dead projects out there as living ones.
And honestly I'm feeling a bit guilty that I didn't say or do anything like this long before Dan left.
OK, I've said my piece. Flame jacket is on. Fire away.
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I started the recent thread on "what's next". Your comments do not reflect either my initial views, nor any of the thread's following comments. I do not believe any of us have adopted the greedy and selfish mentality that you hint at. Have another look at the thread.
Regards,
Kim
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I think you are right. Dan and Co need in our financial support. I hope Dan's works are well.
I sponsored development of GanttViewer for ToDoList (because I need in GV).
We must think about our financial support for Dan's project (or for future developer)
modified on Wednesday, May 12, 2010 2:29 AM
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I don't want to be unfair and therefore I assume that you've written this little verbal attack of yours because you are really worried about what happened to Dan and that you are angry because you really think that most of the users of TDL are selfish and greedy.
Frankly, I think that you are gravely mistaken.
Think about this:
Dan's program TDL is very well known and there is an amazing number of positive reviews. ‘G..gle’ it and you'll find that I'm right.
Your message is one of more than 15thousand messages in this blog. This is a lot but they were written by only a few of people (including dan.g.) in comparison to the number of messages.
I can't proof it, but I'm sure that there are a lot more users "out there" worldwide than messages in this blog.
So – as a logical result – we can assume that most of the users of TDL don't blog here but this gives us no reason to imply that they don't care and that they are only interested in a "free" TDL.
And there is a fortiori no reason to imply that those who are blogging are only interested in a free TDL.
The bloggers here are “working with Dan” and "in the interest" of Dan.
Dan.g. has always encouraged the users of TDL to tell him about possible bugs, has encouraged us to ask for features, make suggestions and so on.
This is what those who blog are doing and a lot of the bloggers told Dan that he is doing a great job and how grateful they are that Dan shares this program with us and now (since Dan's absence from this blog came a little as a suprise and since it's a very long absence) they express their concern about what happened to him.
What else can they do?
I guess that more or less nobody who is blogging here knows Dan personally. Therefore nearly nobody has a chance sending him mail, visiting him at home to find out what's going on ... [and those who can (and know) might not want to talk about it. Nobody wants to intrude, right? Privacy counts!].
The only thing the bloggers can do (at the moment) is go on blogging. But only a few can send messages to tell Dan that they are concerned about his well being. You do not expect everybody to send a "me too" message, do you?
BTW: Some of us have sent him an email telling him that we still hope that all is well.
You don't do both things if you're just concerned about the future support and a robust todo solution going forward and because your concern is only an on-going support and further development of TDL do you?
Remember: We have a robust solution at the moment called Beta 6.1.b1. Minor bugs or problems included. So what? I mean look at the programs some companies sell. Everytime they provide a new version they are always proud to tell the world what they have improved and that means often enough they tell about how many bugs they have fixed. If you bought the older version you bought the bugs, too. And you’re buying the new ones. TDL is free and it is IMHO one of the best programs available and the “bugs” are really negligible.
When I wrote "the bloggers" I meant in a way "the fans".
If you love the music of a rock band and you have every CD in your rack (and go to a lot of concerts) you're called a fan. It's what you are.
Regarding TDL: If you're using TDL everyday, if you trust Dan that his program is not going to scramble your important task lists because of a bug and you love the programm because of the features it has, you're a fan.
What do fans do if the singer of their favourite rock band is e.g. ill?
Most of the normal fans do nothing. Same here. Some of them go to the blog of the rock band expressing their concerns but they usually are not visiting the star at home violating his privacy. Same here.
Do you really think the fans of that rock band are only worried because they are afraid of not getting new songs? They care about “their” star, without even knowing her or him. That’s human.
It would be very nice if Dan would give us a little hint what keeps him from getting in touch with his fans, but … Dan owes us nothing. We owe him a lot of gratitude for sharing TDL with us.
Do we owe him money? Do we have a moral obligation to pay him - or donate?
Well, Dan decided to share this great program with us without selling it. His decision.
I don't know about the situation of Dan but I very much doubt that Dan intended to share TDL with us to get donations as an extra income because he has "...a family to feed, rent/mortgages to pay, and other interests to pursue..." as you wrote. There are better ways for a Software Developer (Senior) to get an extra income than hoping for donations. Dan wrote somewhere in this blog something like that TDL started as a little project to help him personally but he likes developing it, solving a few problems and sharing it. Sounds like a hobby to me.
Somebody already has sent a message with the following statement and I second that: If Dan decides to sell future versions of TDL, I will pay to get them.
This reminds me to say something about “taking over” and a little more about “money”.
We are all hoping that TDL is an ongoing project but … "maybe" you should have waited (and not only a “little” longer!) before you suggested that somebody else takes over.
We do not know yet about the reasons why Dan hasn’t shown up in the blog for a very long time.
Maybe he didn’t have the chance to go on holidays for years and he suddenly got the chance to do so and makes a very long journey. A three months journey through Europe, maybe. He could have had an accident. Maybe he had to move to a new house, maybe we were asking too much of him, maybe…, maybe …, maybe….
Three, four months is really nothing if you have to take care of an important personal matter (and have to work for a living at the same time), agreed?
I can imagine that it must really be a good feeling for Dan if he comes back and finds out that some people didn’t have the patience to wait a little for his return and “took away” what he has been working on for approx. 7 years.
Dan shared the source code of TDL 6.0.8. with us (didn’t do it with TDL Beta Release 6.1.b1, though) but I’m quite sure that he didn’t want to give somebody the permission to take over and develop TDL in a different way, as a competitive program.
TDL is his intellectual property, isn’t it?
The idea of giving Dan only a percentage of what can be earned with TDL after somebody took TDL away from Dan without asking Dan is more than strange.
The whole idea of taking over at the moment is more than strange (especially if you are a fan - who is concernd about the well being of Dan - as you claim to be…).
“Honi soit qui mal y pense”, but your suggestion to take over sounds a lot like “I don’t care about what happened to Dan; I only care about what happens to TDL” in comparison to all the other messages in the blog you seem to refer to!
Your whole idea of taking Dan’s source code (his intellectual property), develop TDL and make money with it is what’s left after getting rid of all the “nice” gift wrap paper, like “…If that's what Dan needs…” or “…some number of people here are more inclined to jump to the next freebie rather than paying Dan some respect by helping to continue his noble efforts…” or “…and let him know we're not going to let his work here die…” or the climax: “…and honestly I'm feeling a bit guilty that I didn't say or do anything like this long before Dan left….” Phhh… The suggestion of giving Dan a percentage of the money that can be earned with TDL doesn’t make it sound better. Vice versa.
See? It’s easy to make false accusations and therefore I’m not accusing you … I’d rather give you what you don’t seem to give us: the benefit of the doubt…
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In a forum (not blog) medium it's easy for misunderstandings to occur and I expected there would be some personal reaction to my notes. As indicated, there are 15000 posts in this forum and when I write one note with the word "you" I can't of course be talking to one person, to "you", or to everyone - my comments simply apply more to some people than others.
Those of you who have genuine interest in Dan's well-being aren't the focus of that portion of my notes, so there is no need to feel as though you have been unjustly accused. Similarly, some of you have given Dan something for his time via PayPal and of course comments about people who just want free software don't apply.
There is no "us". People here want to use software for different purposes. Each of you will have a different response to my comments and none of you can speak for the others as though you understand everyone else's motivations. Therefore, while some people have good intent to respond to a critical commentary, a "not me" is as irrelevant as a "not us".
What prompted my note here is that I see the same thing happening all over the internet. This isn't just about Dan, TDL, or "you the individual". If we take Dan and TDL out of this discussion I think my comments legitimately apply to a broad group of people who insist on "free" software - and for those of you who are considering jumping to something else, then something else, I'd like you to recognize that your problems will follow you because you are now a part of the problem.
Many, not "all", people who are fans of Open Source Software disguise their intent for no-cost software as support for Open Source, though most people don't care about source, never use it, never contribute to the code. One of the core purposes of Open Source is that it responds to the issue of proprietary code where an author is unresponsive and people who want to use good software are held captive to the whims of an individual. Open Source allows people to move forward with their valued software without the pain and expense of having to move to something new. Unfortunately over the years we've seen that, by choice, people tend to move from one package to another anyway when they can't get exactly what they want for Free = no cost. (It's unfortunate that the English word for No Cost is the same word we use for Liberty, which is what FOSS is all about.) The concept of helping with code or documentation, paying for time, and other such things is really not a part of the thought process of most individuals who just want to download and use free stuff. The common impression of the internet these days is that you can get anything you want for free, and anyone who charges for their time or services is evil. This is destroying the software development world as it systematically disables individual developers (no sleep, no food, no rent money, whatever) and demoralizes them away from the model.
Finally, about my statement about selling TDL and giving Dan a percentage. Please do not misconstrue that as an attempt to profit from his efforts. Many Open Source packages these days are sold for a basic processing fee, and/or some companies charge a Support fee to maintain software which they may not have developed. For example, Linux is free AND open source, but RedHat sells installation media, documentation, and they mandate a support fee for use of their distro. Many companies now provide financial software as open source but they ask for hefty support and use fees. My intent was that if someone picked up support for TDL, they should be able to charge for their time (so they don't get burned out like so many other developers) and it would be appropriate for some significant percentage of proceeds to go to Dan for his development of this fine package. My notes here have nothing to do with stealing, charging for something that belongs to someone else, or making profits with no value-add. As someone who spends my life writing software, any lack of equity is disturbing. Any effort to monetize TDL or any other package should be done with respect for the original developer, with equal respect for the time of those who move the package forward.
My trigger on this was a sense from comments of "Dan is gone, he can't give me free software anymore, I need to go get freebies elsewhere" - and again, as a developer, that really rattles my cage. I hope discussion can switch a little toward, first "is there any way to find out how Dan is?", then second "if required, what can 'we' do to carry on Dan's fine work?" - rather than simply going away.
I hope that clarifies some points.
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First of all: You're right. It's of course a forum not a blog. My fault. Thanks for advising me.
"Me", "you", "us", "not me", "not us". I think I didn't get you wrong when you wrote: "you".
Of course you were not adressing a single person. You spoke about (and to) a lot of people.
You told the readers of the messages in the forum that you think that most users of TDL and readers (and members) of the forum are only interested in a free TDL, in an ongoing support etc. and that most of them do not care about anything or anybody else (including Dan). This statement was the reason for me to send an answer to your message.
BTW: I never accused you of something like stealing Dan's intellectual property or that you made a poor attempt to profit from his efforts. That should be crystal clear after reading the first and the last sentence of my message regarding this subject!
Still don't think you're right about the motives of most of the people.
Nevertheless we can agree that no one (including me) can speak for others (especially when you don't know them), but then we have to agree too that no one can speak about others (and their motives) and impute sth. like negative, dishonest intentions or motives.
Now, let's talk about FOSS etc.
When I read your initial message I wondered about your profession and/or your motives to speak in such an emotional way. Couldn't find a hint in your profile but still were under the impression that your are in some way related to software development. Now you confirmed that.
This means of course that you know more than others about the concepts and definitions of FOSS, FSF and so on and maybe it means that you have a different point of view than people who are only users.
I tried to educate myself a litte and looked up FOSS and other words and abbreviations in a "free" encyclopedia.
I don't think that it is unfortunate that the English word "free" means on the one hand "free of charge", "no cost" and on the other hand "liberty". The problem is that people use the word knowing that is has different meanings and therefore using it knowing that this can cause confusion or misunderstandings.
Let's have a short look at the definitions I found:
Free and open source software, also F/OSS, FOSS, or FLOSS (free/libre/open source software) is software that is liberally licensed to grant the right of users to use, study, change, and improve its design through the availability of its source code…Newcomers to the subject can be confused by the term "free"…
In the context of free and open source software, "free" is intended to refer to the freedom to copy and re-use the software, rather than to the price of the software.
Free and open source software is an inclusive term which covers both free software and open source software which, despite describing similar development models, have differing cultures and philosophies.[4] Free software focuses on the philosophical freedoms it gives to users while open source focuses on the perceived strengths of its peer-to-peer development model. FOSS is a term that can be used without particular bias towards either political approach.
The Free Software Definition, written by Richard Stallman and published by Free Software Foundation (FSF), defines free software, as a matter of liberty, not price. The term "free" is used in the sense of "free speech," not of "free beer."
The definition published by FSF in February 1986 had two points:
The word "free" in our name does not refer to price; it refers to freedom. First, the freedom to copy a program and redistribute it to your neighbors, so that they can use it as well as you.
Freeware (from "free" and "software") is computer software that is available for use at no cost or for an optional fee.[1] Software that is commercial is occasionally referred to as payware.
After having read this I have to ask: Why aren't we using a technical term instead of using a word like "free". Frankly, as a user: If I read "free", I read "free of charge", I read "freeware".
We can talk a lot about semantics, but I'd rather have a look at the outcome or at the result to find out what people are talking about.
I definitely don't want to sound ignorant and maybe I'm missing the forest through the trees:
but where's the point if somebody uses a term like "free" in the sense of "free speech," not of "free beer" (excluding the meaning of freeware if I'm not mistaken) but tells me on the other hand that "free" means that I can use the software (without charge) and that I have the freedom to copy the program and redistribute it to my neighbors, so that they can use it as well as I can (without charge)?
At the end of the day If I look at what I am allowed to do with the software(without having to pay for it) I don't see the difference.
Maybe you can clarify that a little. Thanks in advance.
Don't get me wrong: If I want to use a software that is not free of charge I pay for it.
But if somebody provides me and others with a great software he has written and tells the world that everybody can use it for free, he can't complain if people do so, can he?
On the other hand: If a developer would tell the world that he would like to go on programming his "free" software(because it's a hobby to him) but can't do it anymore without a little financial support, he can have that little support even though I would still like to know what would make it impossible for the developer to go on without the financial support.
The amount of time the developer is "investing" is not an issue here. To "invest" the time to create that program was his choice from the beginning and he did it because he likes programming. And he likes to share it with the world not only because he is altruistic but for backslapping and the the reputation too! And that's o.k. Let's be honest.
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With full respect, I have read every word of your notes and I don't fundamentally disagree with any of your points. I appreciate your passion, interest, and representation of "the other side". I'd rather not digress off into a discussion of the definition of Free or people's motivations, etc. And let's assume the majority of people here are as concerned for Dan as their own time keeping, and we can take that off the table as well. I could have done better in editing that stream of thought.
The net result here, focusing on one issue, is that there is fine software, well supported for years, but now facing demise because people don't understand the long term effects of getting something for nothing. If people here really like this software as much as they say, I have defined a series of steps that can be taken to preserve the software for everyone. Take it or leave it. If people don't add it to their own TDL to help the software the way it has helped them, then we all lose with this package and (yes literally) thousands like it.
Is that something on which we can focus?
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All that drama thread really is a waste of energy and time and doesn't help TDL nor anyone IMHO.
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I'd like to avoid the "drama" thread with "not me's" and "what's the definition of Free" and come back to the original premise.
The options are simple, pick one:
1) Help to keep the project going by finding people to maintain it.
2) Find something else.
3) Accept what's here and wait for someone else to pick up the project.
Experience shows that option 3 is what most people do and it's ineffectual, eventually leading to option 2. Projects die with everyone waiting for someone else to do something. Sourceforge.net, codeplex.com, and lots of other collaboration sites and endless websites with freeware/shareware are full of dead projects because people are always waiting for someone else to do something to support the code and developers.
So rather than simply watching this project turn into another one of them, and watching people drop off one by one, I'm advancing the timeline and suggesting that people put it on their TDL now to find someone to help maintain this software.
Contribute your time by finding a C++ programmer.
- Put notices in forums that a fine and popular FOSS project needs a new developer.
- Post a note to your company bulletin board.
- Talk to your family and friends. Post to Twitter and Facebook.
Or: Offer to contribute money for someone else's resource.
- No need to actually send anything unless someone has a willing resource and we know their rates.
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iamstarbuck wrote: Come back here to tell us that you have someone who will work on TDL for X, whether chickens or ca$h.
I don't think it's money what people motivates to work on projects like this one. It has more to do with things so geniously explained here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6XAPnuFjJc[^]. If Dan was interested in earning money through TDL, he wouldn't have published it here on Code Project, but sold it has shareware or something. It is most likely not the reason why he paused/stopped working on TDL and will not be the motivation for anybody to continue working on TDL. Ironically, many of us think that TDL is better than similar software you can buy for money, but I guess this has to do with the fact that Dan was able to build TDL as a side project *without* needing to think about money and customers.
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Sure, a lot of developers do this for joy, myself included, but that's not always good for the users. I have a software business to pay our bills and I have separate FOSS projects that I work on for fun and satisfaction. You can find someone who loves plants and they love to work in their garden, but that doesn't mean they will come and tend your garden for you for free.
Just think through this whole process. The software was free and only one person was working on it. "Great software" wasn't enough to motivate others to work on this code. Many people find joy in working on their own code but they need more motivation to work on someone else's code. That motivation is usually currency. I don't care what people come up with to motivate developers, but unless some other developer(s) is(are) motivated, the bottom line is that this project, like thousands like it, might simply never move beyond its current state.
So again, find a C++ programmer, then ask them what will motivate them to work on this project. The answer you get might be food, a place to live, a massage, books, a Starbuck's card, a bus pass, a Wii - or yes, perhaps just kudos for a job well done. Leave it up to the developers, don't avoid looking for a developer because you're hoping that someone is going to come do this for free.
And whether Dan is going to continue to work on this or not, yes, some of us are legitimately concerned just for his personal well-being.
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I did not have the time to read all answers to this post completely but for me 3 things are quite clear.
1. TDL is truly worth developing it further.
2. I would pay money for it. (I donated already twice)
3. I would register/buy TDL if it would become shareware, also i doubt this is possible due to the form of license.
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Alexxcode wrote:
1. TDL is truly worth developing it further.
2. I would pay money for it.
3. I would register/buy TDL if it would become shareware, also i doubt this is possible due to the form of license
In general I agree whole heartily with you.
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iamstarbuck wrote:
Just think through this whole process. The software was free and only one person was working on it. "Great software" wasn't enough to motivate others to work on this code. Many people find joy in working on their own code but they need more motivation to work on someone else's code. That motivation is usually currency.
Again, I disagree. Look at the thousands of open source projects. People like to work in other peoples' projects because with relatively little effort they can improve an existing tool without writing everything from scratch, because they can learn a lot in doing so, and because it's often fun to work together with other people and discuss solving problem together.
TDL did not attracted other developers because C++ is not really a fun language, and because the project infrastructure for working together was missing (versioned code repository, bug tracker, mailing list etc.). But again, if Dan really wanted to attract other developers, he had moved the project to another place like SourceForge or Google code.
Anyway, I'd really like to see Dan coming back and joining the discussion about the future of TDL. Not really because of TDL, but I'd like to be sure that he's ok.
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On a couple of points I disagree with both iamstarbuck and citorix. I actually took over someone else C++ project on Sourceforge and maintained it for years. The real problem is time, with work, a pager (lot of pager) and family, I ran out of time. This was also the case for those that were helping me on the Sourceforge project.
As for C++, I started programming in assembler and in 1983 switched to C, then in C++ in 1989. Assembler allowed me to make the computer do what I wanted, but it was alot of work. C/C++ allowed me to do what I was do in assembler but without the work. I consider programming in C++ like an art; 90% of the code I have written in C++ is Open Source. The computer is my canvas and C/C++ are the brushes. C/C++ does little to restrict what I can do on that canvas. C++ is lots of fun!
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I think I'm having a hard time getting through to people who don't code for a living. They aren't exposed to the realities of software development like programmers are on a daily basis. Also, as a "power user" I am always looking for better tools to get through my average day, so I see lots of dead projects out there and am regularly refreshing my toolkit. Whereas the average user gets something and then uses it for years, often without ever checking for updates. Comments from Gunhouse and other programmers will help.
Feel free to cite the success of so many FOSS projects - it's a valid position. Also be certain to note the failure of highly successful projects because the one author had other things to do in life - more important to them than working on free software for the sheer joy of it. Examples just off the top of my head include SOAP::Lite, NuSOAP, and HtmlDoc. Again, Sourceforge and Codeplex are both nurseries of lively projects, and also graveyards. I've picked up a few such projects just to give them a little CPR, but I can only keep so many alive myself.
But let's not get distracted by anecdotes of the viability of other software. Just put it on your personal ToDoList to prevent this one project from dying.
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iamstarbuck wrote: I think I'm having a hard time getting through to people who don't code for a living. They aren't exposed to the realities of software development like programmers are on a daily basis.
I don't want to discuss this endlessly either, however I cannot leave that uncommented. As I understand Dan is someone who codes for a living and TDL was only a side project he did for fun and because he uses TDL himself. I myself code for a living and in my little spare time also work on FOSS for fun (not with VisualC++ because that is not fun for me - but Gunhouse is right, maybe for other people it can still be fun). Let me quote Dan Pink's talk in that video I linked to again, where he is talking about the people working on free stuff like TDL, saying they are people
"who have jobs, they're working at jobs for pay, doing sophisticated, technically challenging work, and yet, during their limited disgressionary time, they do equally - if not more - technically sophisticated work, not for their employer, but for someone else for free."
The motivation behind this is actually, as Pink explains, "Challenge" and "Mastery" along with "Making a Contribution". All of this applies to TDL (and what a great contribution it is!) and I'm pretty sure that's also what motivated Dan to work on TDL. And btw, it's also what this website, The CodeProject, is all about: "To learn, to teach and to have fun programming".
All I want to say is there are different solutions for not letting this project die: Find somebody who makes a commercial product out of it, as you suggest, or find somebody (or a bunch of people) who continue the work in the same spirit of a side project because it's fun. *Both* sound fine for me and seem to be possible according to TDL's software license.
But it still worries me somewhat that we are discussing this in the absence of the original author. I guess he's currently just having some RL issues and I would rather give him some more time to come back and either continue the work as a side project or a commercial project now if that's the problem, or properly hand it over to somebody, or make it a more open team project. The current TDL version is working quite well for the time being, so I don't see a reason to hurry. I think it was our fault that we didn't discuss these things with Dan when he was around in the forum, but concentrated only on bugs or missing features.
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citorix wrote: But it still worries me somewhat that we are discussing this in the absence of the original author.
citorix wrote: The current TDL version is working quite well for the time being, so I don't see a reason to hurry.
Exactly !
I don't understand this discussion ... the last beta version works perfectly for me (and I cannot find a post of anyone else that reports a serious bug).
I will not not give up on TDL, regardless if it is further developed/supported or not. I have tried *many* other Task Manager software, including My LIFE ORGANIZED (I am a registered buyer). To make it short: nothing comes even close to TDL.
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We're almost entirely in agreement.
The difference is that you're focusing on what developers do for fun vs profit. I don't care. I don't want TDL to die so I'm being proactive about encouraging people who value this project to help get someone to work on it.
Finally (we all hope), the time we wait for Dan to come back is purely subjective. I've seen projects die when interest wanes and part of what sparked my call to action was discussion of ' Plan "B" '. When that discussion starts, the project is on it's way out. We all hope Dan comes back. If he doesn't we need someone to help. If he does, he'll have someone to help. There is no losing proposition here by seeking help.
Thanks for a lively discussion.
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Gunhouse wrote: The real problem is time, with work, a pager (lot of pager) and family, I ran out of time.
Ok, I do not want to sound like everybody has a job that allows him or her to do side projects. There are times in life and there are jobs that do not allow you to enjoy this kind of "luxury". And unfortunately, in these times of economical crisis etc. it seems to become even worse. Nowadays it seems to be the norm that people either have no job at all or they have a job that demands all of their time. But still I think one should seek a job that gives you some room for hobbies besides family and work in the long run, even if it's not payed that well.
And yes, open source projects can die. But so can commercial products.
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I should let this go...
When someone makes statements like you just did, people go away thinking "yeah, programmers should give themselves more fulfilling lives away from their desks, and that means enriching themselves with more time with their families, and by working on my free software for me, so I guess I don't really need to help find a C++ programmer..." The phrase "let them eat cake" comes to mind.
Please don't give people an excuse. Yes, free time is a luxury that many of us don't have - as you said, particularly because of this economy.
Please stop coming up with all encompassing generalities about why people should find it in their hearts to find this project on their own and work on it.
Please simply put it in your ToDoList to find someone to work on this project (with or without Dan), and let them decide how much time they have and what will motivate them. The reality is that there will probably be several people involved in this.
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Since a lot of good thoughts on this subject were exchanged we can assume that the most important things have been said for the time being.
If you (=iamstarbuck) really want to save the day for TDL as your telling us and if you think it's time to do something I suggest you stop challenging us to do something and start doing something instead.
I do not want to nitpick but it doesn't help just to proclaim that it is important to do this and that and that someone has to do it.
And it doesn't help to tell everybody that it can't be you because you are a developer, "but not C++ but C# (way different) and too overloaded" yourself "to pickup yet another FOSS project".
I mean that's o.k. but then you could do something else e.g. follow your own advice and start looking for a C++ developer (maybe you've done that already but then you didn't tell us about it and frankly your messages do not sound like it...).
I haven't changed my mind about this idea: The idea of taking over from Dan comes far too early for my taste as I already explained here[^].
I suggest that you start working on an answer to the question you asked: "is there any way to find out how Dan is?". This would be a good first step ...
How about getting in touch with the guy who runs The Code Project. The name is: Chris Maunder.
Maybe he knows something. You could send him an email. You might want to start your efforts here: http://www.codeproject.com/Members/Chris-Maunder[^]
or here http://www.codeproject.com/Members/David-Cunningham[^]
Be a shining example ... and get the ball rolling
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Your response exemplifies the "let someone else do it" mindset. I'm trying to get people to think and act more proactively and with better long-term results. I think I've already provided a shining example of how to keep valuable software from dying - I've provided a definition of a common problem which people may not recognize, and I've documented a solution. It's a lesson that can be applied to any project. Consider yourself educated in fishing, but I will not toss you a fish here. I already support other projects and I have a business to run, and I feel I have done my part for this project by planting this seed.
If people like TDL, they now know what can (and arguably should) be done. Any of a hundred people or more can pick up the ball here without knowing anything about code. If there isn't enough appreciation for TDL, it will die like many others. C'est la vie. I'm just hoping that a couple months from now there won't be moaning about what can be done or laments about how no one did anything.
In the end, we can think of this as a form of techno-Darwinism, where well supported and appreciated projects will live on, abandoned projects simply deserve to die to make room for others, and the people who don't take an active part in their own best interests deserve to waste their time looking endlessly for better software. Don't believe in evolution? You're looking at it.
I think I've said enough. Thanks for your time.
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