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All that drama thread really is a waste of energy and time and doesn't help TDL nor anyone IMHO.
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I'd like to avoid the "drama" thread with "not me's" and "what's the definition of Free" and come back to the original premise.
The options are simple, pick one:
1) Help to keep the project going by finding people to maintain it.
2) Find something else.
3) Accept what's here and wait for someone else to pick up the project.
Experience shows that option 3 is what most people do and it's ineffectual, eventually leading to option 2. Projects die with everyone waiting for someone else to do something. Sourceforge.net, codeplex.com, and lots of other collaboration sites and endless websites with freeware/shareware are full of dead projects because people are always waiting for someone else to do something to support the code and developers.
So rather than simply watching this project turn into another one of them, and watching people drop off one by one, I'm advancing the timeline and suggesting that people put it on their TDL now to find someone to help maintain this software.
Contribute your time by finding a C++ programmer.
- Put notices in forums that a fine and popular FOSS project needs a new developer.
- Post a note to your company bulletin board.
- Talk to your family and friends. Post to Twitter and Facebook.
Or: Offer to contribute money for someone else's resource.
- No need to actually send anything unless someone has a willing resource and we know their rates.
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iamstarbuck wrote: Come back here to tell us that you have someone who will work on TDL for X, whether chickens or ca$h.
I don't think it's money what people motivates to work on projects like this one. It has more to do with things so geniously explained here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6XAPnuFjJc[^]. If Dan was interested in earning money through TDL, he wouldn't have published it here on Code Project, but sold it has shareware or something. It is most likely not the reason why he paused/stopped working on TDL and will not be the motivation for anybody to continue working on TDL. Ironically, many of us think that TDL is better than similar software you can buy for money, but I guess this has to do with the fact that Dan was able to build TDL as a side project *without* needing to think about money and customers.
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Sure, a lot of developers do this for joy, myself included, but that's not always good for the users. I have a software business to pay our bills and I have separate FOSS projects that I work on for fun and satisfaction. You can find someone who loves plants and they love to work in their garden, but that doesn't mean they will come and tend your garden for you for free.
Just think through this whole process. The software was free and only one person was working on it. "Great software" wasn't enough to motivate others to work on this code. Many people find joy in working on their own code but they need more motivation to work on someone else's code. That motivation is usually currency. I don't care what people come up with to motivate developers, but unless some other developer(s) is(are) motivated, the bottom line is that this project, like thousands like it, might simply never move beyond its current state.
So again, find a C++ programmer, then ask them what will motivate them to work on this project. The answer you get might be food, a place to live, a massage, books, a Starbuck's card, a bus pass, a Wii - or yes, perhaps just kudos for a job well done. Leave it up to the developers, don't avoid looking for a developer because you're hoping that someone is going to come do this for free.
And whether Dan is going to continue to work on this or not, yes, some of us are legitimately concerned just for his personal well-being.
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I did not have the time to read all answers to this post completely but for me 3 things are quite clear.
1. TDL is truly worth developing it further.
2. I would pay money for it. (I donated already twice)
3. I would register/buy TDL if it would become shareware, also i doubt this is possible due to the form of license.
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Alexxcode wrote:
1. TDL is truly worth developing it further.
2. I would pay money for it.
3. I would register/buy TDL if it would become shareware, also i doubt this is possible due to the form of license
In general I agree whole heartily with you.
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iamstarbuck wrote:
Just think through this whole process. The software was free and only one person was working on it. "Great software" wasn't enough to motivate others to work on this code. Many people find joy in working on their own code but they need more motivation to work on someone else's code. That motivation is usually currency.
Again, I disagree. Look at the thousands of open source projects. People like to work in other peoples' projects because with relatively little effort they can improve an existing tool without writing everything from scratch, because they can learn a lot in doing so, and because it's often fun to work together with other people and discuss solving problem together.
TDL did not attracted other developers because C++ is not really a fun language, and because the project infrastructure for working together was missing (versioned code repository, bug tracker, mailing list etc.). But again, if Dan really wanted to attract other developers, he had moved the project to another place like SourceForge or Google code.
Anyway, I'd really like to see Dan coming back and joining the discussion about the future of TDL. Not really because of TDL, but I'd like to be sure that he's ok.
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On a couple of points I disagree with both iamstarbuck and citorix. I actually took over someone else C++ project on Sourceforge and maintained it for years. The real problem is time, with work, a pager (lot of pager) and family, I ran out of time. This was also the case for those that were helping me on the Sourceforge project.
As for C++, I started programming in assembler and in 1983 switched to C, then in C++ in 1989. Assembler allowed me to make the computer do what I wanted, but it was alot of work. C/C++ allowed me to do what I was do in assembler but without the work. I consider programming in C++ like an art; 90% of the code I have written in C++ is Open Source. The computer is my canvas and C/C++ are the brushes. C/C++ does little to restrict what I can do on that canvas. C++ is lots of fun!
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I think I'm having a hard time getting through to people who don't code for a living. They aren't exposed to the realities of software development like programmers are on a daily basis. Also, as a "power user" I am always looking for better tools to get through my average day, so I see lots of dead projects out there and am regularly refreshing my toolkit. Whereas the average user gets something and then uses it for years, often without ever checking for updates. Comments from Gunhouse and other programmers will help.
Feel free to cite the success of so many FOSS projects - it's a valid position. Also be certain to note the failure of highly successful projects because the one author had other things to do in life - more important to them than working on free software for the sheer joy of it. Examples just off the top of my head include SOAP::Lite, NuSOAP, and HtmlDoc. Again, Sourceforge and Codeplex are both nurseries of lively projects, and also graveyards. I've picked up a few such projects just to give them a little CPR, but I can only keep so many alive myself.
But let's not get distracted by anecdotes of the viability of other software. Just put it on your personal ToDoList to prevent this one project from dying.
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iamstarbuck wrote: I think I'm having a hard time getting through to people who don't code for a living. They aren't exposed to the realities of software development like programmers are on a daily basis.
I don't want to discuss this endlessly either, however I cannot leave that uncommented. As I understand Dan is someone who codes for a living and TDL was only a side project he did for fun and because he uses TDL himself. I myself code for a living and in my little spare time also work on FOSS for fun (not with VisualC++ because that is not fun for me - but Gunhouse is right, maybe for other people it can still be fun). Let me quote Dan Pink's talk in that video I linked to again, where he is talking about the people working on free stuff like TDL, saying they are people
"who have jobs, they're working at jobs for pay, doing sophisticated, technically challenging work, and yet, during their limited disgressionary time, they do equally - if not more - technically sophisticated work, not for their employer, but for someone else for free."
The motivation behind this is actually, as Pink explains, "Challenge" and "Mastery" along with "Making a Contribution". All of this applies to TDL (and what a great contribution it is!) and I'm pretty sure that's also what motivated Dan to work on TDL. And btw, it's also what this website, The CodeProject, is all about: "To learn, to teach and to have fun programming".
All I want to say is there are different solutions for not letting this project die: Find somebody who makes a commercial product out of it, as you suggest, or find somebody (or a bunch of people) who continue the work in the same spirit of a side project because it's fun. *Both* sound fine for me and seem to be possible according to TDL's software license.
But it still worries me somewhat that we are discussing this in the absence of the original author. I guess he's currently just having some RL issues and I would rather give him some more time to come back and either continue the work as a side project or a commercial project now if that's the problem, or properly hand it over to somebody, or make it a more open team project. The current TDL version is working quite well for the time being, so I don't see a reason to hurry. I think it was our fault that we didn't discuss these things with Dan when he was around in the forum, but concentrated only on bugs or missing features.
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citorix wrote: But it still worries me somewhat that we are discussing this in the absence of the original author.
citorix wrote: The current TDL version is working quite well for the time being, so I don't see a reason to hurry.
Exactly !
I don't understand this discussion ... the last beta version works perfectly for me (and I cannot find a post of anyone else that reports a serious bug).
I will not not give up on TDL, regardless if it is further developed/supported or not. I have tried *many* other Task Manager software, including My LIFE ORGANIZED (I am a registered buyer). To make it short: nothing comes even close to TDL.
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We're almost entirely in agreement.
The difference is that you're focusing on what developers do for fun vs profit. I don't care. I don't want TDL to die so I'm being proactive about encouraging people who value this project to help get someone to work on it.
Finally (we all hope), the time we wait for Dan to come back is purely subjective. I've seen projects die when interest wanes and part of what sparked my call to action was discussion of ' Plan "B" '. When that discussion starts, the project is on it's way out. We all hope Dan comes back. If he doesn't we need someone to help. If he does, he'll have someone to help. There is no losing proposition here by seeking help.
Thanks for a lively discussion.
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Gunhouse wrote: The real problem is time, with work, a pager (lot of pager) and family, I ran out of time.
Ok, I do not want to sound like everybody has a job that allows him or her to do side projects. There are times in life and there are jobs that do not allow you to enjoy this kind of "luxury". And unfortunately, in these times of economical crisis etc. it seems to become even worse. Nowadays it seems to be the norm that people either have no job at all or they have a job that demands all of their time. But still I think one should seek a job that gives you some room for hobbies besides family and work in the long run, even if it's not payed that well.
And yes, open source projects can die. But so can commercial products.
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I should let this go...
When someone makes statements like you just did, people go away thinking "yeah, programmers should give themselves more fulfilling lives away from their desks, and that means enriching themselves with more time with their families, and by working on my free software for me, so I guess I don't really need to help find a C++ programmer..." The phrase "let them eat cake" comes to mind.
Please don't give people an excuse. Yes, free time is a luxury that many of us don't have - as you said, particularly because of this economy.
Please stop coming up with all encompassing generalities about why people should find it in their hearts to find this project on their own and work on it.
Please simply put it in your ToDoList to find someone to work on this project (with or without Dan), and let them decide how much time they have and what will motivate them. The reality is that there will probably be several people involved in this.
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Since a lot of good thoughts on this subject were exchanged we can assume that the most important things have been said for the time being.
If you (=iamstarbuck) really want to save the day for TDL as your telling us and if you think it's time to do something I suggest you stop challenging us to do something and start doing something instead.
I do not want to nitpick but it doesn't help just to proclaim that it is important to do this and that and that someone has to do it.
And it doesn't help to tell everybody that it can't be you because you are a developer, "but not C++ but C# (way different) and too overloaded" yourself "to pickup yet another FOSS project".
I mean that's o.k. but then you could do something else e.g. follow your own advice and start looking for a C++ developer (maybe you've done that already but then you didn't tell us about it and frankly your messages do not sound like it...).
I haven't changed my mind about this idea: The idea of taking over from Dan comes far too early for my taste as I already explained here[^].
I suggest that you start working on an answer to the question you asked: "is there any way to find out how Dan is?". This would be a good first step ...
How about getting in touch with the guy who runs The Code Project. The name is: Chris Maunder.
Maybe he knows something. You could send him an email. You might want to start your efforts here: http://www.codeproject.com/Members/Chris-Maunder[^]
or here http://www.codeproject.com/Members/David-Cunningham[^]
Be a shining example ... and get the ball rolling
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Your response exemplifies the "let someone else do it" mindset. I'm trying to get people to think and act more proactively and with better long-term results. I think I've already provided a shining example of how to keep valuable software from dying - I've provided a definition of a common problem which people may not recognize, and I've documented a solution. It's a lesson that can be applied to any project. Consider yourself educated in fishing, but I will not toss you a fish here. I already support other projects and I have a business to run, and I feel I have done my part for this project by planting this seed.
If people like TDL, they now know what can (and arguably should) be done. Any of a hundred people or more can pick up the ball here without knowing anything about code. If there isn't enough appreciation for TDL, it will die like many others. C'est la vie. I'm just hoping that a couple months from now there won't be moaning about what can be done or laments about how no one did anything.
In the end, we can think of this as a form of techno-Darwinism, where well supported and appreciated projects will live on, abandoned projects simply deserve to die to make room for others, and the people who don't take an active part in their own best interests deserve to waste their time looking endlessly for better software. Don't believe in evolution? You're looking at it.
I think I've said enough. Thanks for your time.
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There maybe other reasons TDL did not attract other C++ Programmer and that is it looks like TDL is written using Visual C++ version 6.0. To work together as a team all member should be working with the same development enviroment. I have version 6.0 but I only have Visual C++ 2005 and 2008 loaded on my computer. I tried doing the multi-version thing on a Sourceforge project and half the work I did was converting to and from version 6 and 2005! Not Fun!
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If my status dropdown list has the entries "Waiting For Customer Evaluation" and "Waiting For Customer" (in that order) then the second option can never be selected. TDL always selects the first one. Even if I type in "Waiting For Customer" I still get "Waiting For Customer Evaluation". It would appear you are doing a findstring operation rather than a findstringexact. I am using 6.1.b1(beta).
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I had the same problem when I had two status entries beginning with the same words (seperated by space) but ending in a different way. When I started to work with a lot of columns I solved this problem by using abbreviations. Regarding your status entries I suggest @WfC-E (or @WfCE) and @WfC but it would be better to have completely different names like @WFAE (Waiting For Account Evaluation) and @WFC.
Problems like this were the reason for me to ask Dan to implement more category fields. Then you could have one cat. with @WF (wating for) and another like "@CE (Customers Evalution) and therefore you don't need things like "waiting for customer", "waiting for my colleague Peter", "waiting for component supplier" and so on because @WF would fit for everyone. And the next cat. would tell you what @WF aims at: @CustE, @CollP (or simple: peter), @CompS (or @CoS)... Maybe you can do that by using the fields category and status (if you don't use the cat. column at the moment for something else).
BTW: How do you manage to live with status names as long as yours?
I mean with all the columns on my screen (Category, Completed Date, Completed Status, Creation Date, Dependency, Due Date, File Link, Flag, Priority, Recurrence, Reminder, Start Date, Status, Task ID) I'm in danger that there is not enough space left for the column "title" (the whole task name) not to speak of the comments field (on the right hand side) if I'm using another column or give the status or the category of a task a longer name as a name with max. 5 characters or (which is a problem even though I'm using short names)assigning more than one category to a task. I'm working with a 21" screen and using the font size (pont size) 8. How do you do that?
Thank you very much for your anwer in advance.
Cheers,
Jochen
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Simple. I don't use as many columns as you. I have Priority, % Complete, Estimated time, Date Due, Allocated to, status, category and title. Completion date is not that relevant as I archive off completed tasks. Creation date is not relevant to me. It's just important that I complete the task and that I know what is holding me up. I don't used dependancy. I tend to build dependancy into the tree structure instead. I don't use task ID. Don't need to reference it. I don't tend to use category much. Again I add nodes to the tree. For example I used to have categories of "Hardware" and "Software". I now have "Hardware" and "Software" nodes hanging off the main project node. I don't used date due much, because everything is always due ASAP! Don't use reminders. We have a separate diary program that does a better job. Don't use recurrances, again the diary program does that for us. Never used file links. I know where to find the documentation. Don't display comments next to title. Instead I have comment window open all the time. Don't use flag field. Tend to use text colour to highlight tasks.
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I have been a long-term user of ToDoList, and it has met my needs very well. I'm sure that like many other in this forum, we stray from time to time and look at Swift ToDo List, task management in Outlook, InfoSelect, Essential PIM, and the host of other todo/PIM solutions out there. I do, but generally return to what is one of the best, if not the best solution for task management available.
However, due to Dan's continuing absence, I have wondered about the sustainability of ToDoList as a solution. I NEED a robust todo solution going forward. What if it will not run under the next M$ operating system? What about future enhancements? I am not planning to delve into the code and make any changes myself. I know some of you can.
After a review of a range of potential ToDoList alternatives, I believe MyLifeOrganized is in many ways the closest alternative. It is not open source, and it is not free. It has a light footprint, runs from a USB key, and is very reminiscent of Dan's software. In a number of interesting ways it is superior, but the functionality and price of Dan's ToDoList software has kept me using it for a long time.
Finally, and with a regret or two, I did pay my money and change over to MyLifeOrganized. It was easy to convert across, given the great export options within ToDoList. My primary concern is on-going support. MyLifeOrganized looks like it is also a great piece of software, while having much of the functionality of Dan's code.
I would be interested what others think about a way forward. I think I have made the right decision for me.
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Interessting post, Kim!
I used MLO some month before discovering TDL. I liked it but was happy after i switched to TDL. The complex calculation of importance and due values just did not suit my needs. I just push my tasks manually which wasn´t possible in MLO.
I still love TDL and will continue to use it. Due to the keyboardorientated design i programmed a lot of macros with an external software. I have now buttons for:
- defering tasks for a day or by X lines (lower).
- moving the selected task to the current mouse positon.
- assigning specific icons.
- calling up different Show-parameter sets (Views).
and 100s others.
This way no Do-List fits better for me.
But that TDL has become a dead end product worries me too. It´s amazing how far this freeware developed. If Dan would decide to turn this into shareware i would not hesitate to register.
If anybody could continue Dans work that would be great. I donated twice and would do it again if that helps. Others may think similar.
It would be a shame if the story ends here.
Alexandra
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Alexxcode wrote: I used MLO some month before discovering TDL. I liked it but was happy after i switched to TDL. The complex calculation of importance and due values just did not suit my needs. I just push my tasks manually which wasn´t possible in MLO.
I've used/trialled MLO twice. I really liked it in a lot of ways (especially the PPC sync) BUT, as you point out with the 'complex calculation', there's a lot of peculiar, untweakable GTD derived stuff that just didn't suit me at all. AND it doesn't have more than a small fraction of the power of TDL. In many ways it looks nicer, but there's so much power and usability in the TDL screen & UI that MLO doesn't have. I actually see MLO & TDL as being at opposite ends of the tasklist spectrum.
Alexxcode wrote:
But that TDL has become a dead end product worries me too. It´s amazing how far this freeware developed. If Dan would decide to turn this into shareware i would not hesitate to register.
I'm not sure how much this bothers me. I use lots of software which suddenly and unexpectedly stopped development and support. After a number of years they are still often the programs that suit me best & have no problems with W7 64bit. I keep looking, but I see no realistic alternative to TDL with equivalent functionality. I've seen this happen with single developer programs, small & large company programs, free and commercial programs. There's also quite a few programs I really liked where development & support has continued, but they have changed in ways that don't suit me so well or something I like better has come along.
I'd really like Dan to be around, but I can see myself using TDL for many years whether he is or not. It's a really great program as it is.
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akaDormouse wrote:
I'd really like Dan to be around, but I can see myself using TDL for many years whether he is or not. It's a really great program as it is.
I agree, but when i remember how fast TDL developed when Dan still was around i really miss that power/progress. Help me out here. Is TDL Open Source? Is it theoratically possible somybody can resume Dans work? Is the code open to everyone and can one comprehend it?
Alexandra
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