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Ah it's great to learn he's OK.
I know what it's like to be addicted to coding. When I was doing the TDL Calendar plugin it took over my spare time and eventually I realised there is far more to life, and it had to stop.
Coding for fun is cool, but realising what's actually important is much cooler
Personally I am not at all worried about the future of TDL. The current version is working perfectly fine, and I have no need for any new features. So even if the project dies, so what? It is already more than good enough.
I am proud of Dan for his decision to finally stop working on TDL, it can't have been an easy decision.
Cheers
[d3m0n]
Email (replace "***" with "key")
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[d3m0n] wrote:
I am proud of Dan for his decision to finally stop working on TDL, it can't have been an easy decision.
WHAT! Are you kidding?
I think you are the only one who is happy (proud of) that Dan G stopped! And how do you know he is "addicted to coding" if there is such an "addiction"!
People are already turning their backs on TDL as it seems to get a dead product. Just look at the loss of activity in this forum and the MLO posts. I was seriously concerned about Dan G and yeah i was happy he is alive and kicking. But i also felt kind of stupid for my sorrow. I don´t know why he did not communicate his break for whatever reason to the forum.
This would have taken 5 minutes and would have kept all the people from wondering and concerning. Even better would have been asking for support (C++) or even for donations (he earned some). He (sh)could have posted the last source code. There were and still are many options.
But the current state, where nobody knows whats on Dans mind, the current source code is not available and people on the forum are showing "deep respect" for Dans vanishing or even being proud of his "decision" is becoming the nail on TDL´s coffin.
And that is really sad. I have troubles to imagine that this was on Dans mind. TDL and Dan have deserved a lot more than a partial product and some emotional invested users left alone.
Still it´s time to act. But it´s running out for TDL.
Steve
-- Modified Saturday, May 29, 2010 5:41 AM
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None of that matters Steve. Use what you've got or move on to something else, it doesn't matter.
Cheers
[d3m0n]
Email (replace "***" with "key")
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Dan,
Wishing you the best! I continue to use ToDoList daily, and I'm constantly recommending it to others. I mean that simply by way of thanks -- not an appeal for e.g. your immediate return or whatnot.
I hope the current break serves its purpose -- well, and with good outcome -- and that you'll find interest in further "tinkering" if and as it suits circumstances.
P.S. Do we need to queue one of those time lapse transitions, here?
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..dB.. wrote: There will be no fixed date for when he might return.
I did not say he would not return,
I did not say he would return.
No fixed date is exactly that, it could be tomorrow, it could be a month, it could be never.
Personally, till something better comes along, I will be using TDL as is. I am happy to wait.
..dB..
Everyone makes mistakes, that's why they put erasers on pencils.
Milhouse, The Simpsons.
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..dB.. wrote:
Personally, till something better comes along, I will be using TDL as is.
Me too, but i´m not so happy to wait. It would be good if you could convince Dan G to post the latest sourcecode and maybe others can continue Dans great work. There are always phases of less motivation but this baby is just to good to let it die.
Please keep contact with him and tell us whats going on. People here are caring and showing respect but this uncertainness is not good for anybody especially TDL.
Thank You
Alexandra
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Firstly, thank you for this wonderful software! The first time I see this I was excited, and then when I found that it can even export to Freemind file I got even exciting.
Currently, ToDoList export to web pages with hard-coded html, so you can't easily change the display style after exported.
So I suggest that you export to XHTML which only contain the data, and then use css stylesheet to define the display style.
eg. export xhtml like this:
<br />
<span title="taskId">2.2.1.(ID: 42) </span><span title="taskTitle">Telphone meeting </span>(risk: 0) (created: 2010-05-17 0:00) (start: 2010-05-17) (cost: 0.00000000) (last mod: 2010-05-17 0:19)<br />
and use css style like this to define display style:
<br />
<style type="text/css"><br />
<br />
.taskId {<br />
font-color:red;<br />
height:9px;<br />
}<br />
<br />
.taskTitle {<br />
font-color:red;<br />
height:12px;<br />
}<br />
</style><br />
modified on Wednesday, May 19, 2010 12:27 PM
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I'll give it some thought and get back to you if I have any questions.
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Heya!
As the title says, it just disappears when I click the minimize button or minimize via the windows key shortcut. TDL just goes away, no error, no nothing.
Minimize has occasionally worked, but 99% of the time, it acts just like exiting (although it doesn't ask me to save changes).
I am running on Windows 7 x64 using ToDoList 6.0.8.
Is this a known bug? Anything I can do/try?
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You have probably TDL configured to minimize to the systray instead of the taskbar, and Win 7 hides systray icons by default. You should configure the systray to always show the TDL icon, or configure TDL to minimize to the taskbar. Sometimes I experienced another problem that Win XP (and Win 7?) did not show the systray icons even if it was enabled, but that's does not seem a TDL specific problem, but a Win problem. You can also assign a shortcut key to TDL that can be used to show the TDL window even if the systray icon is missing.
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No, it literally disappears. It's not running anymore.
Minimize to systray option actually seems to bypass the problem - if I enable it, it no longer disappears. This is good enough as a workaround for me, actually
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I have the same problem. TDL exists on minimizing. I don´t know what to do about it.
Alexandra
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Dear Dan,
first i want to say that i am very happy that you are back and well!
It is still a problem.
It closes if minimized. Also:
I assigned ALT + W as a global Hotkey for TDL. If it´s not selected it gets selected. But if it is already selected TDL closes. Same with other Key Combinations.
Thank You
Alexandra
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I found that I have the minimize quits problem on Windows XP when I have teamviewer open, with the Partner List option enabled, when there is the QuickConnect button on the window title.
I found that I can disable the QuickConnect button for a specific application at Teamviewer and the problem doesn't happen anymore.
I wonder if everyone that has this problem uses teamviewer too.
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You saved my day
I was searching around why ToDoList closes when minimizing...
How did you figure out that teamviewer is the reason. I wouldn't have found that in years!
thanks for the solution!
regards
Achim
read my lips: NO MORE BUGS!
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It wasn't easy. I knew it worked fine on my friend's machine, and it was happening only some times on mine.
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Thx for your hard work.
I'm really interested in getting TeamViewer installed on my machine so that I can actually work out and fix the problem.
Any help you could give me would be greatly appreciated.
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Hi, I saw this problem with Teamviewer version 4, I'm not sure it happens with the latest version.
You can download it and use it for free from http://www.teamviewer.com/download. Download the full version. Press Previous versions to get version 4.
Thanks!
Paulo Santos
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While there is some genuine concern for Dan I think most people are more interested in their free software. Here is a summary of my understanding of this whole situation.
Most people haven't given Dan anything for his time. All they care about is "free". Pay him a compliment and hope that he'll keep coding for you for free forever.
People don't care about "free" as in "open source". Few people are interested in maintaining code, just doing what's more important to them.
Granted, not everyone who uses TDL is a programmer and many programmers aren't C++ experts. But if you can't contribute directly, there's nothing wrong with paying someone who can code to help maintain a product that's important to you.
Rather than paying someone for software or time, or bartering with a C++ developer (chickens?) to get you what you want, most people are on their way to find the next package, the next freebie, the next developer who will code for the masses until he/she burns out like so many others. Then the vultures will move on to the next.
The concept of "Free and Open Source Software" (FOSS) is successful only if there is some reciprocal benefit for everyone involved. You simply can't get what you want if you don't keep your developers alive to keep coding for you. They have families to feed, rent/mortgages to pay, and other interests to pursue. Many developers honestly don't want ca$h for their time but without some sort of compensation to keep them doing what they do, it's inevitable that excellent projects like this will ultimately die.
So what can be done with TDL now?
No matter who you are or what you do for a living, take some time to find a C++ developer. Get their rates, find out what they want for their time. Help to figure out how to get them what they want to provide what you want.
Come back here to tell us that you have someone who will work on TDL for X, whether chickens or ca$h. Let other people here decide whether they will help to fund your resource.
You don't need to do this all yourself. Most people know someone who writes code for a living - ask them to find a C++ developer who can help to maintain this excellent project.
Don't just let the project die. Put it into your ToDoList to find people who will help to work on this code. Keep coming back to the Task until it's Complete!
And I think it would be good for anyone who knows Dan or might have a way to get in touch with him to find out how he is. Just let us know. And let him know we're not going to let his work here die.
If he's OK, see if he would be interested in changing his model for support of this fine package. There's nothing wrong with starting to sell open source software to support its continued development. If that's what Dan needs then people here really should step up to help keep the man and his family alive. Even if Dan doesn't work on this software anymore, I think any for-fee model should include a percentage that goes to Dan (or his family or whomever). We've been using this software for years folks. We owe the man.
If Dan is not healthy, I just think it's a shame that some number of people here are more inclined to jump to the next freebie rather than paying Dan some respect by helping to continue his noble efforts.
As to "why don't you do it, wise guy?" I'm a developer, not C++ but C# (way different), too overloaded myself to pickup yet another FOSS project, and I've just seen too much of this same vulture-like behaviour playing out in the open source world. It's starts to get to me when I see as many dead projects out there as living ones.
And honestly I'm feeling a bit guilty that I didn't say or do anything like this long before Dan left.
OK, I've said my piece. Flame jacket is on. Fire away.
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I started the recent thread on "what's next". Your comments do not reflect either my initial views, nor any of the thread's following comments. I do not believe any of us have adopted the greedy and selfish mentality that you hint at. Have another look at the thread.
Regards,
Kim
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I think you are right. Dan and Co need in our financial support. I hope Dan's works are well.
I sponsored development of GanttViewer for ToDoList (because I need in GV).
We must think about our financial support for Dan's project (or for future developer)
modified on Wednesday, May 12, 2010 2:29 AM
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I don't want to be unfair and therefore I assume that you've written this little verbal attack of yours because you are really worried about what happened to Dan and that you are angry because you really think that most of the users of TDL are selfish and greedy.
Frankly, I think that you are gravely mistaken.
Think about this:
Dan's program TDL is very well known and there is an amazing number of positive reviews. ‘G..gle’ it and you'll find that I'm right.
Your message is one of more than 15thousand messages in this blog. This is a lot but they were written by only a few of people (including dan.g.) in comparison to the number of messages.
I can't proof it, but I'm sure that there are a lot more users "out there" worldwide than messages in this blog.
So – as a logical result – we can assume that most of the users of TDL don't blog here but this gives us no reason to imply that they don't care and that they are only interested in a "free" TDL.
And there is a fortiori no reason to imply that those who are blogging are only interested in a free TDL.
The bloggers here are “working with Dan” and "in the interest" of Dan.
Dan.g. has always encouraged the users of TDL to tell him about possible bugs, has encouraged us to ask for features, make suggestions and so on.
This is what those who blog are doing and a lot of the bloggers told Dan that he is doing a great job and how grateful they are that Dan shares this program with us and now (since Dan's absence from this blog came a little as a suprise and since it's a very long absence) they express their concern about what happened to him.
What else can they do?
I guess that more or less nobody who is blogging here knows Dan personally. Therefore nearly nobody has a chance sending him mail, visiting him at home to find out what's going on ... [and those who can (and know) might not want to talk about it. Nobody wants to intrude, right? Privacy counts!].
The only thing the bloggers can do (at the moment) is go on blogging. But only a few can send messages to tell Dan that they are concerned about his well being. You do not expect everybody to send a "me too" message, do you?
BTW: Some of us have sent him an email telling him that we still hope that all is well.
You don't do both things if you're just concerned about the future support and a robust todo solution going forward and because your concern is only an on-going support and further development of TDL do you?
Remember: We have a robust solution at the moment called Beta 6.1.b1. Minor bugs or problems included. So what? I mean look at the programs some companies sell. Everytime they provide a new version they are always proud to tell the world what they have improved and that means often enough they tell about how many bugs they have fixed. If you bought the older version you bought the bugs, too. And you’re buying the new ones. TDL is free and it is IMHO one of the best programs available and the “bugs” are really negligible.
When I wrote "the bloggers" I meant in a way "the fans".
If you love the music of a rock band and you have every CD in your rack (and go to a lot of concerts) you're called a fan. It's what you are.
Regarding TDL: If you're using TDL everyday, if you trust Dan that his program is not going to scramble your important task lists because of a bug and you love the programm because of the features it has, you're a fan.
What do fans do if the singer of their favourite rock band is e.g. ill?
Most of the normal fans do nothing. Same here. Some of them go to the blog of the rock band expressing their concerns but they usually are not visiting the star at home violating his privacy. Same here.
Do you really think the fans of that rock band are only worried because they are afraid of not getting new songs? They care about “their” star, without even knowing her or him. That’s human.
It would be very nice if Dan would give us a little hint what keeps him from getting in touch with his fans, but … Dan owes us nothing. We owe him a lot of gratitude for sharing TDL with us.
Do we owe him money? Do we have a moral obligation to pay him - or donate?
Well, Dan decided to share this great program with us without selling it. His decision.
I don't know about the situation of Dan but I very much doubt that Dan intended to share TDL with us to get donations as an extra income because he has "...a family to feed, rent/mortgages to pay, and other interests to pursue..." as you wrote. There are better ways for a Software Developer (Senior) to get an extra income than hoping for donations. Dan wrote somewhere in this blog something like that TDL started as a little project to help him personally but he likes developing it, solving a few problems and sharing it. Sounds like a hobby to me.
Somebody already has sent a message with the following statement and I second that: If Dan decides to sell future versions of TDL, I will pay to get them.
This reminds me to say something about “taking over” and a little more about “money”.
We are all hoping that TDL is an ongoing project but … "maybe" you should have waited (and not only a “little” longer!) before you suggested that somebody else takes over.
We do not know yet about the reasons why Dan hasn’t shown up in the blog for a very long time.
Maybe he didn’t have the chance to go on holidays for years and he suddenly got the chance to do so and makes a very long journey. A three months journey through Europe, maybe. He could have had an accident. Maybe he had to move to a new house, maybe we were asking too much of him, maybe…, maybe …, maybe….
Three, four months is really nothing if you have to take care of an important personal matter (and have to work for a living at the same time), agreed?
I can imagine that it must really be a good feeling for Dan if he comes back and finds out that some people didn’t have the patience to wait a little for his return and “took away” what he has been working on for approx. 7 years.
Dan shared the source code of TDL 6.0.8. with us (didn’t do it with TDL Beta Release 6.1.b1, though) but I’m quite sure that he didn’t want to give somebody the permission to take over and develop TDL in a different way, as a competitive program.
TDL is his intellectual property, isn’t it?
The idea of giving Dan only a percentage of what can be earned with TDL after somebody took TDL away from Dan without asking Dan is more than strange.
The whole idea of taking over at the moment is more than strange (especially if you are a fan - who is concernd about the well being of Dan - as you claim to be…).
“Honi soit qui mal y pense”, but your suggestion to take over sounds a lot like “I don’t care about what happened to Dan; I only care about what happens to TDL” in comparison to all the other messages in the blog you seem to refer to!
Your whole idea of taking Dan’s source code (his intellectual property), develop TDL and make money with it is what’s left after getting rid of all the “nice” gift wrap paper, like “…If that's what Dan needs…” or “…some number of people here are more inclined to jump to the next freebie rather than paying Dan some respect by helping to continue his noble efforts…” or “…and let him know we're not going to let his work here die…” or the climax: “…and honestly I'm feeling a bit guilty that I didn't say or do anything like this long before Dan left….” Phhh… The suggestion of giving Dan a percentage of the money that can be earned with TDL doesn’t make it sound better. Vice versa.
See? It’s easy to make false accusations and therefore I’m not accusing you … I’d rather give you what you don’t seem to give us: the benefit of the doubt…
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In a forum (not blog) medium it's easy for misunderstandings to occur and I expected there would be some personal reaction to my notes. As indicated, there are 15000 posts in this forum and when I write one note with the word "you" I can't of course be talking to one person, to "you", or to everyone - my comments simply apply more to some people than others.
Those of you who have genuine interest in Dan's well-being aren't the focus of that portion of my notes, so there is no need to feel as though you have been unjustly accused. Similarly, some of you have given Dan something for his time via PayPal and of course comments about people who just want free software don't apply.
There is no "us". People here want to use software for different purposes. Each of you will have a different response to my comments and none of you can speak for the others as though you understand everyone else's motivations. Therefore, while some people have good intent to respond to a critical commentary, a "not me" is as irrelevant as a "not us".
What prompted my note here is that I see the same thing happening all over the internet. This isn't just about Dan, TDL, or "you the individual". If we take Dan and TDL out of this discussion I think my comments legitimately apply to a broad group of people who insist on "free" software - and for those of you who are considering jumping to something else, then something else, I'd like you to recognize that your problems will follow you because you are now a part of the problem.
Many, not "all", people who are fans of Open Source Software disguise their intent for no-cost software as support for Open Source, though most people don't care about source, never use it, never contribute to the code. One of the core purposes of Open Source is that it responds to the issue of proprietary code where an author is unresponsive and people who want to use good software are held captive to the whims of an individual. Open Source allows people to move forward with their valued software without the pain and expense of having to move to something new. Unfortunately over the years we've seen that, by choice, people tend to move from one package to another anyway when they can't get exactly what they want for Free = no cost. (It's unfortunate that the English word for No Cost is the same word we use for Liberty, which is what FOSS is all about.) The concept of helping with code or documentation, paying for time, and other such things is really not a part of the thought process of most individuals who just want to download and use free stuff. The common impression of the internet these days is that you can get anything you want for free, and anyone who charges for their time or services is evil. This is destroying the software development world as it systematically disables individual developers (no sleep, no food, no rent money, whatever) and demoralizes them away from the model.
Finally, about my statement about selling TDL and giving Dan a percentage. Please do not misconstrue that as an attempt to profit from his efforts. Many Open Source packages these days are sold for a basic processing fee, and/or some companies charge a Support fee to maintain software which they may not have developed. For example, Linux is free AND open source, but RedHat sells installation media, documentation, and they mandate a support fee for use of their distro. Many companies now provide financial software as open source but they ask for hefty support and use fees. My intent was that if someone picked up support for TDL, they should be able to charge for their time (so they don't get burned out like so many other developers) and it would be appropriate for some significant percentage of proceeds to go to Dan for his development of this fine package. My notes here have nothing to do with stealing, charging for something that belongs to someone else, or making profits with no value-add. As someone who spends my life writing software, any lack of equity is disturbing. Any effort to monetize TDL or any other package should be done with respect for the original developer, with equal respect for the time of those who move the package forward.
My trigger on this was a sense from comments of "Dan is gone, he can't give me free software anymore, I need to go get freebies elsewhere" - and again, as a developer, that really rattles my cage. I hope discussion can switch a little toward, first "is there any way to find out how Dan is?", then second "if required, what can 'we' do to carry on Dan's fine work?" - rather than simply going away.
I hope that clarifies some points.
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First of all: You're right. It's of course a forum not a blog. My fault. Thanks for advising me.
"Me", "you", "us", "not me", "not us". I think I didn't get you wrong when you wrote: "you".
Of course you were not adressing a single person. You spoke about (and to) a lot of people.
You told the readers of the messages in the forum that you think that most users of TDL and readers (and members) of the forum are only interested in a free TDL, in an ongoing support etc. and that most of them do not care about anything or anybody else (including Dan). This statement was the reason for me to send an answer to your message.
BTW: I never accused you of something like stealing Dan's intellectual property or that you made a poor attempt to profit from his efforts. That should be crystal clear after reading the first and the last sentence of my message regarding this subject!
Still don't think you're right about the motives of most of the people.
Nevertheless we can agree that no one (including me) can speak for others (especially when you don't know them), but then we have to agree too that no one can speak about others (and their motives) and impute sth. like negative, dishonest intentions or motives.
Now, let's talk about FOSS etc.
When I read your initial message I wondered about your profession and/or your motives to speak in such an emotional way. Couldn't find a hint in your profile but still were under the impression that your are in some way related to software development. Now you confirmed that.
This means of course that you know more than others about the concepts and definitions of FOSS, FSF and so on and maybe it means that you have a different point of view than people who are only users.
I tried to educate myself a litte and looked up FOSS and other words and abbreviations in a "free" encyclopedia.
I don't think that it is unfortunate that the English word "free" means on the one hand "free of charge", "no cost" and on the other hand "liberty". The problem is that people use the word knowing that is has different meanings and therefore using it knowing that this can cause confusion or misunderstandings.
Let's have a short look at the definitions I found:
Free and open source software, also F/OSS, FOSS, or FLOSS (free/libre/open source software) is software that is liberally licensed to grant the right of users to use, study, change, and improve its design through the availability of its source code…Newcomers to the subject can be confused by the term "free"…
In the context of free and open source software, "free" is intended to refer to the freedom to copy and re-use the software, rather than to the price of the software.
Free and open source software is an inclusive term which covers both free software and open source software which, despite describing similar development models, have differing cultures and philosophies.[4] Free software focuses on the philosophical freedoms it gives to users while open source focuses on the perceived strengths of its peer-to-peer development model. FOSS is a term that can be used without particular bias towards either political approach.
The Free Software Definition, written by Richard Stallman and published by Free Software Foundation (FSF), defines free software, as a matter of liberty, not price. The term "free" is used in the sense of "free speech," not of "free beer."
The definition published by FSF in February 1986 had two points:
The word "free" in our name does not refer to price; it refers to freedom. First, the freedom to copy a program and redistribute it to your neighbors, so that they can use it as well as you.
Freeware (from "free" and "software") is computer software that is available for use at no cost or for an optional fee.[1] Software that is commercial is occasionally referred to as payware.
After having read this I have to ask: Why aren't we using a technical term instead of using a word like "free". Frankly, as a user: If I read "free", I read "free of charge", I read "freeware".
We can talk a lot about semantics, but I'd rather have a look at the outcome or at the result to find out what people are talking about.
I definitely don't want to sound ignorant and maybe I'm missing the forest through the trees:
but where's the point if somebody uses a term like "free" in the sense of "free speech," not of "free beer" (excluding the meaning of freeware if I'm not mistaken) but tells me on the other hand that "free" means that I can use the software (without charge) and that I have the freedom to copy the program and redistribute it to my neighbors, so that they can use it as well as I can (without charge)?
At the end of the day If I look at what I am allowed to do with the software(without having to pay for it) I don't see the difference.
Maybe you can clarify that a little. Thanks in advance.
Don't get me wrong: If I want to use a software that is not free of charge I pay for it.
But if somebody provides me and others with a great software he has written and tells the world that everybody can use it for free, he can't complain if people do so, can he?
On the other hand: If a developer would tell the world that he would like to go on programming his "free" software(because it's a hobby to him) but can't do it anymore without a little financial support, he can have that little support even though I would still like to know what would make it impossible for the developer to go on without the financial support.
The amount of time the developer is "investing" is not an issue here. To "invest" the time to create that program was his choice from the beginning and he did it because he likes programming. And he likes to share it with the world not only because he is altruistic but for backslapping and the the reputation too! And that's o.k. Let's be honest.
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