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I agree with you. I believe there should be no legal bearing and all should be done through contracts if the customer want some safeguard.
To alcohol! The cause of, and solution to, all of life's problems - Homer Simpson
----
Our heads are round so our thoughts can change direction - Francis Picabia
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Unlike many people on here, I have not worked as an independent consultant where I sell my time/wares. I have worked for multiple large corporations, however, in manufacturing enviroments.
As such, I was paid to write code, my employer was my 'customer'. Should I be told after I have left the company that I need to come back, on my own time, to fix issues that have come up?
Even if my code has been left unaltered, does that mean the underlying enviroment is identical? What if the OS has been upgraded or new versions of libraries installed? Am I then responsible for determining that these changes are causing the problem? And, if I spend the time to determine that, what is my compensation for identifying a problem I am not responsible for?
Here are some real-life examples:
- a reporting system is using Crystal Reports; the organization changed versions and the reports no longer work
- a system that generates truck weight tickets is designed to use a dot-matrix printer for speed of printing; the PC is upgraded from Windows 2000 to Windows XP and the tickets no longer print the same due to a difference in the print driver
- a system reads information from a flat file on a server it only has read access to; the format of the flat file is changed by a third party; who is responsible for the data read no longer working?
Tim
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I consider each of these questions to be very simply the responsibility of the customer. In each case, _they_ have modified the operating environment. In none of these cases has your work been shown to be defective/deficient.
If I put leaded petrol into an unleaded car and poison the cat(alytic converter in the exhaust pipe), it's my fault. The two versions of the same fuel are _not_ forwards/backwards compatible. Certainly, unleaded is the successor to leaded, but that doesn't make them the same thing.
So,
1) Their responsibility. Just as I could expect some things to no longer work when I changed from XP to Win7 or Win8. Write permissions in the "Program Files" folder is an obvious enough example.
2) Again, their responsibility. The operating conditions have changed. You made a tool to fit the environment, the environment was since changed. It's little wonder the tool no longer fits well.
3) Surely, you jest? Obviously the responsibility of those with write access to the flat file.
It's a pretty basic task to specify the operating environment supported and add caveats that explicitly explain that deviations from said specs may be functional, but will not be supported without incurring further costs.
It really can be as simple as "Strictly for indoor use only" as seen on so many electrical doodads.
"Science adjusts its views based on what's observed. Faith is the denial of observation, so that belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin
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Terms and Conditions could clearly indicate the scenarios and scope for warranty.
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lets remember what the survey is asking, should you offer a guarantee for BROKEN code. which implies code that as been missed/overlooked through the debug process. That is your fault, you cant argue with that it just is. so if your charging for the work you carried out, you should fix your mistakes.
Other than that what else would you be charged for? as long as the original logic was followed and the client got what they wanted why would you need to fix it?
that's my 2 pennies worth anyway...
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I agree, of course you should fix your mistakes.
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.. because the survey statement included no limitations to the warranty other than the damage exclusion. Based on those conditions, that means that once I have sold a piece of software I have to support it for all eternity. I am liable to fix bugs even after it is no longer technically feasible to do so. I've had customers try to stick me with those conditions, and it simply isn't reasonable.
I produce a quality product, and I want my customers to be happy with it. In my day job we routinely give customers free software upgrades for the life of the product, given that it's a multi-million dollar hunk of iron and the software just makes the thing go. For my after-hours consulting I will fix reasonable errors for a limited amount of time, and I'm the judge of what's reasonable. I won't handle specification changes and feature requests without negotiation.
Software Zen: delete this;
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Shocking to see the results of this survey. If I buy an expensive item I would expect a guarantee for a time period.
In the same token if you provide source code at a price then you should guarantee it. This does not even need to be explicit. If it does not work then you fix it because you wrote it.
How is it ok to charge for broken code and then charge extra to fix it?
If you provided the code for free then the situation is different. Nobody expects a guarantee with free stuff. But, if you have charged, have some pride and fix it, no questions asked.
Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex... It takes a touch of genius - and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction.
~ Albert Einstein
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Agreed. It's about taking responsibility. There's too little of that nowadays. (Listen to me, sounding like somebody's grandpa.)
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No seriously, think about it. Holding companies responsible for their crappy code sounds great, right? And maybe it is.
But regular people can't afford to be haunted by all their past projects. No one would ever release a pet project again. Too risky. Open source would be in serious trouble - many projects won't be able to survive by relying for development just on the companies that use them. Software would became like hardware: you can tinker in your shed, but almost any actual "product" is produced by a company.
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I think you can safely exclude open source projects from this. I mean.. yeah you can give the user a full refund if it doesn't work... like "Hey man, here you have your 0$ back that you paid us for this software"
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Ok. It would still apply to free open source if fixing is mandatory though. The question didn't really clarify whether the choice implied by the "or" is to made by the developer or by the lawmaker.
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Hm. I hadn't thought this way. From
Quote: If our code breaks should we be legally liable to provide a repair, a replacement or a refund I understood that the developer is just liable to provide either of those three. It could, however, also mean that the user is the one to choose what he wants.
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I read it as warranty for 'sold code' as in source code. So answered no.
But for actual 'finished' software (not that I've seen a finished software product yet), then yes they should come with warranties.
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One user complained that her PC/application was no longer working as before.
I swapped out the monitor first. Issues persisted.
I swapped out the graphics card. The issue persisted.
I swapped out the PC, carefully copying all her applications to the hard disk of the new PC. The issue persisted.
Turned out that the idiot had downloaded and installed the Aquarium screensaver; you know, the one where the little fishies swim around on your screen.
It was a TSR (terminate and stay resident) program that caused the havoc.
Took three days to resolve and three roundtrips from my site to user site.
If I had known that at the beginning, I would have bought the twat a real aquarium at K-Mart for $20 and saved myself a lot of aggravation.
NO FRIKKING WAY!
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Why is that an argument for "No"?
It's a software problem with the screen saver...
The only instant messaging I do involves my middle finger.
English doesn't borrow from other languages.
English follows other languages down dark alleys, knocks them over and goes through their pockets for loose grammar.
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It was viewed by the user as a problem with the ERP software.
It was not.
I was required to fix it.
I spent my time and energy fixing a problem that I didn't cause.
Who is going to sue the provider of the free Aquarium screensaver to compensate me for my efforts?
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If your software doesn't do what I asked it to do, fix it or pay me back. Period. No excuses.
Will Rogers never met me.
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Damn right!
The only instant messaging I do involves my middle finger.
English doesn't borrow from other languages.
English follows other languages down dark alleys, knocks them over and goes through their pockets for loose grammar.
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1. Because the development cost would be far too high to develop anything.
2. It is nearly impossible decently calculate the risk, developers are not "material" that can have a measured strength or reliability. (hence #1)
3. Many suppliers already do deliver some sort of warranty, based on a a certain amount of free "bugfixing", guaranteed passing of test scenarios, etc...
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Strangely enough, those are pretty much exactly the arguments given by both the British car industry, and the British motorcycle industry shortly before their Japanese equivalents arrived on these shores and the subsequent disappearance of the native manufacturers as going concerns...
The only instant messaging I do involves my middle finger.
English doesn't borrow from other languages.
English follows other languages down dark alleys, knocks them over and goes through their pockets for loose grammar.
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Hey guys,
As we all know that nobody is perfect, and deadlines are always a b, If I had the time to finish my project without any pressure i would have said yes, but I have to say know
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As a hobbyist(all my bugs are in software I developed and I am the only consumer of) , I would have thought the results would be on the yes side of the question.
I find this split in opinion interesting.
David
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I'm not at all surprised. It reflects the openness of the question.
A warranty is usually offered on something with a narrow set of use cases. The warranty is void if you deviate. But, in those cases deviation is concrete and clear. With software it's more broad and abstract. For instance, who's bug is it if two application drivers conflict?
My vote is yes, because a limited warranty is still a warranty. You may not be able to offer a warranty to be completely compatible with every system configuration for the next year, but you certainly can for security issues.
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David C# Hobbyist. wrote: I find this split in opinion interesting. I believe the 'Yes' side had a slight lead yesterday, but now the votes shifted to a slight lead on the 'No' side. It is still a close race.
Soren Madsen
"When you don't know what you're doing it's best to do it quickly" - Jase #DuckDynasty
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