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Chris Maunder wrote: Including a link to your product or service in your sig is fine as long as it doesn't make your posts blatant ads for your product.
Case in point. A guy complains in the Lounge that he just spent several hours installing Visual Studio and associated components, fixes, etc. I express my opinion: "That seems unreasonable to me - development systems should be small, efficient, and easy to install." This remark is followed by a link (in my signature) to an exemplary development system that is small, efficient, and easy to install.
Is that a blatant ad?
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Using replies as opportunities to talk about your own product when the original reply had nothing whatsoever to do with your product is simply self-promotion.
cheers,
Chris Maunder
CodeProject.com : C++ MVP
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Chris Maunder wrote: Using replies as opportunities to talk about your own product when the original reply had nothing whatsoever to do with your product is simply self-promotion.
Would also start a flame war. This would disrupt the peace and harmony in the forums 
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Chris Maunder wrote: Using replies as opportunities to talk about your own product when the original reply had nothing whatsoever to do with your product is simply self-promotion.
But it's not myself that I'm promoting, or even this particular product. It's ideas that we're promoting. Like the idea that development systems shouldn't require hours of installation, or the idea that websites shouldn't be so cluttered that people find it difficult to locate the "discuss" button. Or the idea that hierarchical forums create as many problems as they solve (weirdness included). I've got a million of 'em. And yes, our products are examples of how things might be done instead, but even if I didn't have a product, those would still be my opinions. The product simply adds credibility to those opinions, and makes them "constructive criticism" instead of just "criticism".
Are you saying I shouldn't express my opinions here because we've taken the time to develop an example application that embodies those opinions? There's so much of me and my philosophy in the Plain English IDE that it would really be hard to say anything without at least an implicit reference to that tangible manifestation of my beliefs. Should I just express the opinions and leave the signature off? What do you recommend?
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Then please discuss your ideas and not your product
cheers,
Chris Maunder
CodeProject.com : C++ MVP
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Chris Maunder wrote: Then please discuss your ideas and not your product
By which you mean: "Then please discuss your ideas and not your product which is the prime example of how those ideas manifest themselves in real life." Like, "Talk all you want about trees, but don't mention oaks, maples, or pines." Seems a bit restrictive, don't you think?
Here's what happens now:
(1) I say, "It doesn't have to be like this."
(2) Someone replies, "How should it be?".
(3) I answer with the product.
Here's what happens under your suggestion:
(1) I say, "It doesn't have to be like this."
(2) Someone replies, "How should it be?".
(3) I answer, "I'm not allowed to say."
Nonsense.
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No, actually what has been happening is
1) Someone says: I have a problem with X, or Y is dumb
2) You reply: You should check out our Product at our website or email me at this address.
You have a product and that's great. You're passionate about it, which is even cooler. But you think it's the only solution for the problems you perceive and it's not. It's an option.
The problem with your posts isn't so much the advertising of your product. It's your approach of saying "You should use our product" everywhere, constantly, out of context and counter to what the original poster has originally asked.
Please just step back a little and consider what it would be like if we had a Java zealot, or a Fortran Fanatic doing exactly what you are doing.
cheers,
Chris Maunder
CodeProject.com : C++ MVP
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Chris Maunder wrote: But you think it's the only solution for the problems you perceive
Not so. Categorically, not so. But I do think the only solution for overcomplexity is simplification; the only solution to inefficiency is efficiency; the only solution to bad design is good design. Our product just happens to be the best example I have to offer. Point me to something better, and I'll promote that (the same way I've promoted DarkBasic and Oberon here in the past).
Chris Maunder wrote: It's your approach of saying "You should use our product" everywhere, constantly, out of context and counter to what the original poster has originally asked.
But look closely and you'll see that that is not what I say. I say (1) you folks should object, strongly, to violations of simplicity, efficienty, and bad design; and (2) you folks should do something about them. Stick your heads out the window and cry, "We're mad as hell and we're not going to take it anymore". Refuse to "upgrade" to Vista, for example (which is of no direct concern to us - our products use so little of the operating system, and look the same on all versions, so we don't really care - but giving Microsoft more money and more control is a problem that affects us all).
And who are you to talk? You're whole site literally screams "Use Microsoft and nothing else!"
Chris Maunder wrote: Please just step back a little and consider what it would be like if we had a Java zealot, or a Fortran Fanatic doing exactly what you are doing.
It would be an improvement. Really. Competition can be a good thing, and in this case, it would be. I've seen a variety of posts here asking for the deprecated Java forum, or a Delphi forum, or more information about Linux. One of your own surveys had almost 30% of the respondees working daily in Delphi, and yet you offer them nothing - not even a tiny forum in a corner. The site is in danger of becoming nothing but a bunch of "inbred" Microsoft drones (apologies to Red).
The stature and influence that God has given you with CodeProject, Chris, comes with responsibility. Be careful what you do with it.
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The Grand Negus wrote: The site is in danger of becoming nothing but a bunch of "inbred" Microsoft drones
I can't see that happening. Take me as an example: Sure I use .NET, I work for a Microsoft Gold Partner, in work I've ditched NUnit, NCover, etc. for the tools built in to Visual Studio Team System.
However, I still use NUnit (out of work), Rhino mocks (because MS don't have a mock framework solution), SQLite, FireFox, I intermittently try out a Linux distro, I arrange developer events and some of them are not even MS oriented (Scottish Developers have had speakers from the Oracle and Java communities and a lot of the agile stuff is happening in Java)
A lot of people here work mainly with MS products - but not exclusively because they have to interact with non-MS products. That adds richness and diversity. It also means that we won't end up with the kind of constant zealotry found on Slashdot.
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Colin Angus Mackay wrote: because they have to interact with non-MS products.
But not for long, if Microsoft gets its way. And deprecating the Java forum here is one more step toward granting Microsoft its wish. Take enough little steps and suddenly you're there.
Colin Angus Mackay wrote: That adds richness and diversity.
Wouldn't a couple of Fortran Fanatics do the same thing? Perhaps even a Plain English proponent or two...
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The Grand Negus wrote: Fortran
Now that is a language I haven't programmed in for a very long time
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The Grand Negus wrote: Wouldn't a couple of Fortran Fanatics do the same thing? Perhaps even a Plain English proponent or two...
What we need is a Magik zealot - It was a wonderful language. It had in 1988 things the are only just about to arrive in CLR 3.0! It was written by a post-doctoral graduate from Cambridge University called Arthur. The only other person in the entire world that could actually understand this guy was his girlfriend and the then CEO of a company called Smallworld. They managed to dumb down his ideas so it could be explained to the world.
Wonderful language - we should make it mandatory. I'm actually leanring how to make a compiler to the CLR so that we can have Magik .NET (Actually, no it was for other reasons, but a Majik.NET would be also be cool).
One of the coolest things about Magik was that it didn't have Boolean logic. The result of an expression could be true, false or maybe. (It also had the extreme case where the result could be "no_way" where not "no_way" would also be "no_way") Absolute genius!
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WTF? I never even noticed that there wasn't a Java forum... maybe that's why it died... having nothing to do with anyone's "agenda"... it was simply lack of interest. I simply love the way that MS makes the Ford Taurus of software and people complain that they have some kind of agenda other than making money.
"Quality Software since 1983!" http://www.smoothjazzy.com/ - see the "Programming" section for (freeware) JazzySiteMaps, a simple application to generate .Net and Google-style sitemaps!
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The Grand Negus wrote: You're whole site literally screams
Please look up "your" and "literally." A web site cannot "literally scream."
The Grand Negus wrote: The stature and influence that God...
Ah, ha. I was wondering what product you were pedaling. I guess it is your religion.
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Matt Gerrans wrote: Please look up "your" and "literally." A web site cannot "literally scream."
My, my, my, I wonder how his Plain English Compiler compiles that code 
As far as a website screaming, it can all it wants, my speakers to this computer are unplugged :->
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Matt Gerrans wrote: A web site cannot "literally scream."
I always found the statement by that crazy mother after her 10 year old son watched that programme where Janet Jackson had that "wardrobe malfunction". The mother wrote to her political representative and said that her son't head "literally exploded". What a mess that must have made!!
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"but it's just a little titty" - emphasis on little
"Quality Software since 1983!" http://www.smoothjazzy.com/ - see the "Programming" section for (freeware) JazzySiteMaps, a simple application to generate .Net and Google-style sitemaps!
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Matt Gerrans wrote: Please look up "your" and "literally." A web site cannot "literally scream."
Sorry, got carried away. Let's call it a fanatic's metaphor.
Matt Gerrans wrote: Ah, ha. I was wondering what product you were pedaling. I guess it is your religion.
And you, with every word that comes out of your mouth, are peddling yours. All of us are; some of us know it.
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The Grand Negus wrote: Matt Gerrans wrote:
Please look up "your" and "literally." A web site cannot "literally scream."
Sorry, got carried away. Let's call it a fanatic's metaphor.
 Looks like you still don't get it. It would be a metaphor without the "literally" part. With the "literally" in there, it is just a stupid sounding statement.
The Grand Negus wrote: Matt Gerrans wrote:
Ah, ha. I was wondering what product you were pedaling. I guess it is your religion.
And you, with every word that comes out of your mouth, are peddling yours. All of us are; some of us know it.
Oh, the old "I know you are but what am I?" defense. That worked great in grammar school, didn't it? Time to move onto something more compelling, now, don't you think? Please point out to me exactly where I was offering up my irrational belief system. 
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The Grand Negus wrote: Are you saying I shouldn't express my opinions here because we've taken the time to develop an example application that embodies those opinions?
The problem with this is that if someone asks how to format a floppy, you don't tell them! You insist that formatting a floppy is flawed thinking and that they should take a look at your product and read your manifesto. All he wanted to do was format a frickin' floppy and you turn it into a discussion of your ideals and what's wrong with the computing world today.
If you want to do nothing but discuss your ideals, start your own discussion board or newsgroup.
Dave Kreskowiak
Microsoft MVP - Visual Basic
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Since your reply does nothing other than critisize what you think is wrong with Microsoft, or some other product, then directs everyone to your "perfect" product, YES, this is blatant advertising.
If you just make some suggestions on how he might fix his problem, without throwing the product away in favor of yours, and keep the link in your sig, then there's no problem.
Dave Kreskowiak
Microsoft MVP - Visual Basic
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Dave Kreskowiak wrote: If you just make some suggestions on how he might fix his problem, without throwing the product away in favor of yours, and keep the link in your sig, then there's no problem.
The difficulty is that the problems are, for the most part, systemic. They can't be fixed with bandages and pain pills. Radical surgery is required, and that is all we have to offer. You can get less drastic (and less effective) remedies from all the other practitioners here. We're giving you the unwanted - but honest - diagnosis.
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You're frickin' joking, right?
Someone comes here and asks how to create an array of objects and you tell him to cut out the cancer that is Visual Studio .NET?? I'm not really clear on this... how does that solve his problem and get his project turned in?
Dave Kreskowiak
Microsoft MVP - Visual Basic
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Dave Kreskowiak wrote: how does that solve his problem and get his project turned in?
It doesn't solve his immediate problem - but it might give him a solution to a larger problem (being shackled to Visual Studio for years to come).
Consider: A guy is stopped on the road by a very beat-up clunker with a broken hose. You stop and lend him some duct tape. I come along and point him to a friend who will give him a good deal on a new vehicle. Now I think we've both done the guy a good turn; but you seem to think I've done something wrong.
When I used to see a certain kind of individual struggling with a certain kind of problem in my database design classes, I would recommend that that person seek out a different career. It did nothing to help with the immediate exercise, of course, but when the advice was taken, it invariably led to a happier outcome.
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The Grand Negus wrote: It doesn't solve his immediate problem
Then don't reply. If you're not going to help his with his immediate problem, what are you doing here?
BTW: I didn't even bother to read the read of your post. The first sentence pretty much made the rest pointless.
Dave Kreskowiak
Microsoft MVP - Visual Basic
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