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Apologies for the length... Some ideas for your consideration.
I will put aesthetics largely aside, as has been mentioned above, they are dictated by fashion. And the look, while quite 'stand-alone' application is fine in my opinion. However, I like an interface that can be configured to the way I work, presents the information in a logical, tidy, consistent fashion without visual clutter, and is efficient to use. Pretty comes second to that, but is nice when it can be achieved.
I have several suggestions for improving the TDL interface below. Some blur between UI usability and application functionality, but I am not sure that can be helped.
Visible information
Some of the visible items in the interface aren't always needed. It would be useful to be able to hide them when not needed. I personally find the filter bar superfluous most of the time. I am not really sure of the purpose of the Project edit box – could the tab name be directly editable? If in-grid editing was possible, could hide the edit bar also. I would hide these either in a column to the left of the tasklist (like All-in-one sidebar in Firefox), or at the top, in place of the filter-bar.
Further, I think it would be useful to hide the tasklist tabs that you won't use for a particular tasklist (e.g. Calendar).
Two examples: http://i.imgur.com/cirIzeK.png[^] and http://i.imgur.com/W2Zhmt4.png[^]
'Views'
TDL could be provided with 3 default views, that are easily swapped between. The user could choose which to start with. These views would control the visible columns, tabs, toolbars and probably menu items. There could be a global view preference, but each tasklist could have its own view. My suggestions:
- Simple: Totally lite, for the android generation. Mimic many of the current task managers. Listview only, no hierarchy, Task title, due date, priority, reminder., maybe flag and category. Ability to sort by fields, or by manually dragging. Has comments. Reduce menu options to cover the above. Maybe allow for say 4 priorities, indicated by the colour of the task
Example: http://i.imgur.com/JfHM13q.png[^]
- Basic: For the mid-range user. Add the tree view, and the ability to nest tasks. Ability to add any of the other columns and functionality? Or leave off Gantt, Stats, custom fields for instance. Initial view is as for the Introduction.tdl. Not entirely sure of where best to pitch this though... Or maybe MLO like. Not so many columns, but icons instead..
- Expert: The full experience for the real taskers and project managers. All features exposed.
This could also be used for setting up TDL for specific uses (mentioned by _BS_). For instance, I have a set up for notetaking, that mimics many of the hierarchical notetaking apps (e.g. Keynote). Currently I run this is a separate version of TDL, due to the width of the comments affecting all tasklists. Only really need Task tree. Note: It would be useful for the comments width to be tasklist specific.
Notebook view: http://i.imgur.com/8nRTC0F.png[^]
To push this boat out still further, I think it would be useful to allow the user to define their own views. This would enable the user to work with a tasklist in a visually simple way, but then quickly switch to a more complex view for more intensive / detailed work.
Text Formatting
I agree with Alex. Being able to visually distinguish certain types of task by the text format would be useful. For me the following would be useful:
Definable font formatting for Tasks based on Level
Definable fonts based on an attribute value (e.g. Tag - could be complex)
- Definable fonts for attribute columns
- The possibility to display icons instead of text in the attribute columns (this is now partly possible for the user defined icon based attributes. Would be nice to do this for some of the in-built ones, as they are better integrated in the application than the user defined ones.
Some things for 'ease of use' – but these are features as much as UI / Workflow enhancement:
Grouping of tasks in Listview
I still think it is a major thing, to be able to group tasks by one or more attributes in Listview.
User defined sorts and groups
We have user defined filtering, and that is great. Would be useful to be able to do this for (multi) Sorting. And if implemented, grouping.
Separate Filtering and Sorting for different Tabs
I still think it would be able to be able to de-couple the filtering for the different tabs (perhaps by preference).
Rules builder
Being able to set up rules that change attributes, based on what happens to other attributes could be nice for efficency. Would be useful for integrating user defined attributes into the application better. But this has been discussed before.
Finally, I would also counsel caution in making changes, and to be clear why you want to. Is the point having a task list that is everything to everyone?
zajchap
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A big thank you for the application, it is very useful to me
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I am using 6.7.8 and have encountered problems when printing. Many if not all of the stylesheets do not print all of my tasks and I cannot detect a pattern. The samee thing happens when printing without stylesheets. I have enabled all tasks, uncompleted tasks, visible columns and including comments.
Reasoning that some of the trouble might come from older versions of the stylesheets, I extracted the updated versions from Beta 4. Several of these are now working correctly. Specifically, ToDoListTableStylesheet_v1.xsl, and Z_DetailedReport.xsl seem to work. If I try with no stylesheets, then once again, only some of my tasks will print.
Am I missing some setting?
Thank you.
Jon
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Member 10052396 wrote: I have enabled all tasks, uncompleted tasks, visible columns ...
Do I understand you right that you are missing some uncompleted tasks? (because you have not selected completed tasks).
What happens if you don't include comments?
Pierre
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Pierre de la Verre wrote: Do I understand you right that you are missing some uncompleted tasks?
You understand correctly.
Pierre de la Verre wrote: What happens if you don't include comments?
You win the prize! All expected tasks print when I uncheck comments. Why?
Jon
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Member 10052396 wrote: ...print when I uncheck comments. Why?
I suppose this is based on the changings of the (@)COMMENTS value in TDL. There were some discussions around it here in the forum. I think that Dan will see your reply and look into it.
Pierre
modified 23-Nov-13 3:38am.
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Pierre de la Verre wrote: based on the changings of the (@)COMMENTS value in TDL But Jon's saying that tasks are missing when he doesn't use a stylesheet
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Member 10052396 wrote: You win the prize! All expected tasks print when I uncheck comments. Why? How big are the comments?
Are they plain-text or rich-text?
ps. Have you tried 6.8.B4?
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.dan.g. wrote: How big are the comments?
They vary from a couple of lines to a page or so.
.dan.g. wrote: Are they plain-text or rich-text?
Rich text. I have embedded files in some of the comments.
.dan.g. wrote: ps. Have you tried 6.8.B4?
No, but if you think it will make a difference, I will. I noticed in the earlier betas and alphas that I could not store my preferences in the ini. It is important to me. Can I now do this?
Thank you both for your help.
Jon
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Member 10052396 wrote: If I try with no stylesheets, then once again, only some of my tasks will print. So with no stylesheet, tasks are missing?
If so, can you describe exactly what options you are using in the 'Print' dialog and, if possible, describe the nature of the tasks that are missing (so that we might determine a pattern)?
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.dan.g. wrote: So with no stylesheet, tasks are missing?
Correct.
From my original post, "I have enabled all tasks, uncompleted tasks, visible columns and including comments."
I thought the pattern was that the printed tasks were all overdue. I changed one overdue task to current and made a non overdue task, overdue. Did not help. The same tasks were printed.
Jon
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I must admit that I've never heard of this before.
Can you send me a portion of your tasklist that exhibits this problem, along with your preferences file?
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Sure. It is the weekend here and the file is at work. I'll send it Monday (or sooner if something comes up).
Jon
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Hi All
I did a routine Google search for recent comments on TDL and came up with this one from 2012:
"As for gripes my only one is that it's ugly."
And that confuses me because I don't know what the user means in this context.
Do they mean:
1) It uses the default Windows theme instead of groovy .NET components?
2) It is plain in it's styling?
3) It doesn't allow 'in-place' editing?
4) Its UI is otherwise badly designed?
5) ...
Tell me how else you might interpret their comments?
ps. I'm not looking for validation or assurance about TDL.
pps. Please send me links to software that you think is 'beautiful', but not web pages.
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Thx Dave.
DT996 wrote: has a pretty face, but it 's functionality falls way short of TDL. This is a big part of the problem.
It's (relatively) easy to make something simple look beautiful, much harder with more complex software... (Visual Studio, SQL Server, etc)
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.dan.g. wrote: 2) It is plain in it's styling? yes
.dan.g. wrote: 4) Its UI is otherwise badly designed? for most of users I introduced TDL to, yes, it is. They just don't care too much about functionality (at least in the beginning), it looks confusing to them, they don't stay with the app for long so there's no chance for them to become advance users and they rarely come back.
Another issue is a learning curve, some extensive actions to reach a goal (remember, http://www.codeproject.com/Messages/4680904/Task-focus.aspx[^], your solution was Quote: What about combining: Filter Bar > Show > Selected Tasks
with Filter Bar > Options > Show all subtasks ? Still it's a good solution and you are getting the required result but not everybody would be so insistent to come over it even if there's already some experience with the app.
We mentioned MLO several times, it's a shareware so they have to do something to sell it good. Have a look at its evolution within last, say, 7-8 years.
1. http://www.procrastinationhelp.com/mlo1.jpg[^]
http://www.procrastinationhelp.com/mlo2.jpg[^]
Overwhelmed with settings
2. http://bruceatkinson.com/images/mlo-ssh001.gif[^]
a bit more polished
3. http://www.mylifeorganized.net/i/sshots/myLife-ssh014.png[^]
latest version, unbalanced in colors to me but we are talking about GUI progress.
Apart from it, Omnifocus looks nice http://www.omnigroup.com/video/#introducing_omnifocus_for_mac[^]
In the beginning users want something eye-candy, then they want functionality and in the end they insist on customization.
In my view for most users TDL has the latter twos but lacks the first one, as soon as it gets it http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ryrQ8nadah8[^]
Unfortunately I cannot help with the design itself, probably it can be somehow outsourced but if you ask what exactly can be helpful:
1. ability to choose between simple, moderate and advanced layouts during installation.
Probably it's even better to have some advice for users which layout to choose depending on their previous experience and workflow requirements (a housemaid doesn't need Gantt charting and Burndown statistics so a simple layout is a good choice for her, likewise a project manager wouldn't be embarrassed by these terms and will choose an advanced layout)
2. more themes to choose from
3. more curved edges of GUI windows
4. icon sets (or different icons)
5. more visual effects
P.S. mostly the abovementioned are feedbacks from users in my surrounding, they are not keyboard ninjas or masters of planning, just normal users
Alex
modified 21-Nov-13 4:52am.
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Re: MLO, other comments.
I have come back here (TDL) [again] after having not kept with it, as the poster above mentions. Again the only real competition is MLO - even then it's not much competition, given the cost ...
What I have been searching for for quite some time, and still not found, is a PIM with subtasks, post-Palm world.The world has moved on in a number of ways since Palm, not the least Google, Android, and Linux. i.e. Agendus + ShadowPlan/Bonsai in a larger cross-platform Linux / Windows / Google / Android / Internet world. And none of this website subscription / synchronization nonsense, direct sync only. (But I appreciate that the subscription route is probably the only way to keep food in your mouth in this ecosystem.)
I am back to TDL mostly for two things - Android app, and finally got Wine going and found I could run TDL under it. TDL as a windows only app, still, is harming itself. Which is all to say, it's not TDL, it's the ecosystem surrounding it - pbworks and codeproject are easy examples of this. Everything screams 'coders only'. The lack of (Google) calendar integration also holds it back.
(Given my recent experience, had to play with Windows 8.1 for the first time, I've vowed never to buy another MS machine, and to get off all things MS ASAP. Like I said, TDL windows only holds it back.)
Anywho ... the reason / what caused me to write this ... careful if you take up the offer to check out MLO - the free version is still many, many, years old, and also 'plainly ugly'. If you want to see the esthetics of what the above poster is talking about, stick with the screenshots the website shows. Or purchase.
In the mean time ... in many ways I appreciate the 'ugliness' of TDL - it's CLEAN! Straightforward. Easy to use / understand - once you understand outlines, and project management, little extraneous. But, if all that were intuitive to most people ... there'd be more competition for it out there - and there isn't.
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Dan: I totally agree with what Alex said.
I am a graphic designer. AND I REGRET be unable to help, I not have time! had begun with icons, but -you see- I could not move much.
TDL functionality is AWESOME. And certainly, if I TDL had an attractive UI ... quickly be positioned as the best program of its kind ..
There are many programs with beautiful UI. In a future post try to post some links.
Yes, TDL it's a bit ugly, but... we love it
Regards,
Armando
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Thx Alex, I really appreciate the time and effort you have put into your response.
mugrrrr wrote: they don't stay with the app for long so there's no chance for them to become advance users and they rarely come back. I would appreciate you outlining (in any level of detail) what you might consider to be a good 'Out of the Box' experience for TDL that we could aim for. I hope you appreciate that after 10 years it's very difficult for me to see TDL with 'new' eyes.
mugrrrr wrote: Another issue is a learning curve, some extensive actions to reach a goal I get you. Perhaps here too you could suggest some further 'goal-oriented' simplifications we could make.
mugrrrr wrote: ability to choose between simple, moderate and advanced layouts during installation. Feel free to highlight which parts of the UI (in your opinion) significantly add to its complexity.
mugrrrr wrote: a housemaid doesn't need Gantt charting and Burndown statistics It is my intention to add preferences to control what tabs are visible, so that certain tabs can be turned off by default.
mugrrrr wrote: feedbacks from users in my surrounding I know that many people don't know what they do like, but do know what they don't like, but it would be great if we could translate what they don't like into statements of what they would prefer.
mugrrrr wrote: as soon as it gets it And we could change TDL's name to FLYTRAP!
Thx again for all your comments. I'd love to make this an ongoing conversation where everyone can contribute to the debate.
modified 21-Nov-13 22:11pm.
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I guess i know or more feel what the author of those lines meant.
The design of TDL is not fresh. It can´t be as it hardly changed over the years.
But:
Design is a fashion-victim. What does that mean? Same as fashion it runs through the standard fashionpsychology cycle of perception which is chronological:
strange - unknown - new - fresh - stylish - wannabuy - must have - more common - even used by standard people - not capable to stand out any more - not stylish - not wearable
The more special the design the quicker the runthrough of the cycle. You may remember the fashion brand ED HARDY ? Explore your feelings about it then and now...
At the moment grey, colourless designs are the trend. Office 2013 and iOS 7 are examples for that. You actually wonder why you are using a color monitor. Please, don´t go there!
IMHO you should not look for any designs at all. Instead make it just a bit more visual and adaptable. This way it will never look outdated. Designwishes are even more userspecific as featurewishs. I know Prefs are already big but what about:
- Definable fonts for Tasks and the subtasks up to Level 5 including Options for Bold and Italic
- Definable fonts for attribute columns
- Definable fonts for Menu´s
- The possibility to display icons instead of text in the attribute columns. Just one example: In the "Occurs" columns you could display icons for daily, weekly, monthly... instead of words. It would also save space!
Regards
Alex
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Everyone needs a little validation sometime...
I would not say TDL is 'ugly'. There are prettier and uglier applications out there. It is however very busy and loud when compared to more recent aesthetics. It is functional though, and when using its substantial capabilities needs to be able to show a lot of information. However, some things I have noticed:
The initial level of detail can put people off - as has been mentioned above. You tend to grow into task planning, often going from simple to complex (and then back to simple again ). It seems only certain types of people actually want / enjoy / can be bothered with extensive task management. So some people I work with use no task management, others use simple systems (e.g. post-its, diaries, google tasks etc), and others again use slightly more able systems, such as Toggl, usually for team or time recording reasons. My point I guess is that the interface may put off those in the first 2 camps, especially if they really only want a simple, non-hierarchical list, with task title and a due date... But then are these people target audience?
Back to the styling. I have also looked at a variety of task managers on Android. They are often quite pretty and minimalist. They are obviously touch based, and don't have the extensive functionality of TDL, but some have some very nice ways of hiding detail unless you want it (e.g. slide out toolbars and menus, information only becoming visible when hovering over or clicking). TDL is a bit inflexible in what and how things are displayed (e.g. it would be great to specify visibility of columns, filter, entry fields separately in user defined 'views', grouping of tasks in task view, ability to hide/slide/pin toolbars easily in the interface rather than by shortcut or menu navigation)
As also mentioned above, the TDL functionality is fantastic and you can do all sorts of things, but sometimes it feels hard / inelegant. It is often just little things, and they are probably really hard to deal with, as everyone works a bit differently. You usually just get used to them. So much so I can't really recall any specific cases..
I would personally like the option for in-place editing, and it is more intuitive for new users IMO. I rarely change multiple items at once, and it means I am looking directly at the row I am editing, rather than looking up and down. But I can see reasons for both, and am used to it.
To summarise, for a propeller head like me, the interface is fine. It has its rough edges, but most things are able to be handled in one way or another. To me, of more value is the functionality. But for people who are after a simple list of task names with due dates/days, the additional functionality is not relevant, and hence the look and ease of use will be of greater importance.
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my 2c:
If you plan to hype the experience/design/layout ... my advice is to take it slowly ... Kaizen style (baby steps)
Because we don't want already existing hard core users to look away for alternatives.
Maybe you can have a parallel release ("the beauty edition") just to see how it goes.
Best regards,
Stefan
P.S. Initially I was using the KeyNote Note taking app (not the apple one) until it become discontinued. It was a delphi application, but the use of it came so naturally that I thought it was beautiful. So in my eyes user experience is beauty
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I build a Ruby on Rails application which does stats on the completed tasks by parsing the *.done.tdl files. When I can't complete a recurring task and want to skip it, at the moment I can do as follows
+ Mark it as completed so it moves to its next occurrence. This would make the stats incorrect.
+ OR I can manually move the task to its next occurrence. This is a bit tedious.
So my suggestion is adding a new action called something like "Skip this occurrence" which moves a recurring task to its next occurrence.
Thanks a lot for reading and thank you for an awesome application.
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