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Project name is good for giving the project a name.
Projects have many more attributes than just their name. Some are already present, such as last modified.
Do file / properties on something, a document or spreadsheet, for example, and you will see examples of many other useful 'list level' attributes. Or check out IPTC or Exif data for similar file metadata. Not that I think shutter speed, or aperture, applies to a project file, but you should get the idea.
In the end, by definition, no one lives in a vacuum or an island - we are members of teams and work in groups - and so must share and communicate what we do and are on about. So if I hand you a copy of my list, where (whom) it's from, what it's all about, when last updated, are just a small subset of what might be useful to be able to communicate / print / display about a list.
Given the current organization of TDL (e.g. Multiple categories, 1-9?), it could be quite reasonable to simply make CUSTOMLISTATTRIBUTES 1 - 9. (Perhaps with tags? i.e. labels for the fields?) CLA0_Name = 'Author', CLA0_Data = 'Dan'. Over time, use may lead to a (unmandated?) convention that CLA0 is used for 'Author'?
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.dan.g. wrote: TCP_JM wrote: Is the project name field just good for giving a list a very long name? Or use characters that are not allowed in file names? Pretty much, yes. Thanks for your reply. That's what I thought .
Jochen
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My mistake, you are correct.
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Hello,
have you ever considered including some basic mind mapping functionality in your app?
I would guess it could be very helpful as none of the external tools (like FreeMind) is designed especially for task management...
Thanks, M.
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Basically there's an import function from XMind in TDL so you can work with your mind maps easily. As for built-in functionality I've never seen an app successfully combining two of these, mindmapping and task management . The main difference is in the approach itself: mindmapping is used to brainstorm and generate as many thoughts and ideas as possible in whatsoever form (you can call it 'stage 1') while task management is needed on a further stage ('stage 2') helping to organize and complete your tasks. Each approach is better for its own stage, I personally use them accordingly.
Alex
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tdl is Freemind, et al, without the GUI.
One way to think of it. Certainly one way I use it.
... don't need no stinkin' GUI's!
And I find the totality of the results much easier to grasp - the 'diagram' being much tighter / compact. And a whole lot faster to work with. e.g. Much less mousing.
Sharing is problematic either way - hand them a tdl result and they look at you like you're a space alien. (C'mon people, it's just indented bullet points, how hard a concept is that to grasp? While remaining stupidly easy to move up, down, all around.) While trying to keep a mindmap on one (printable) page to share is ... frustrating.
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_BS_ wrote: tdl is Freemind, et al, without the GUI.
It is not. As I mentioned above each approach has its own goals. Mindmapping is mostly used to "generate, visualize, structure, and classify ideas, and as an aid to studying and organizing information, solving problems, making decisions, and writing" (taken from here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mind_map[^]).
Moreover, Tony Buzan ("father" of mindmapping in its modern concept) says that while "traditional" outlines force readers to scan left to right and top to bottom, readers actually tend to scan the entire page in a non-linear fashion. This is the classical view of a mind map http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:MindMapGuidlines.svg[^]. Does it seem to have an outline view? Or probably this http://freeplane.sourceforge.net/wiki/index.php/File:WhatIsMindMapping.jpg?
Sure everybody is free to use anything according to his needs but if talk about classical approach to mindmapping it has more of semantics in it.
_BS_ wrote: the 'diagram'
C'mon it's a third approach with different attributes
Alex
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mugrrrr wrote: _BS_ wrote: tdl is Freemind, et al, without the GUI.
It is not
It is.
Quibble all you want, and deep dive whether FreeMind, FreePlane, or XMind implement true mind maps, they are all graphical tree representations.
Just visually and graphically laid out instead of only textually laid out.
Let alone how it's defined, and how it's commonly (but not always) used, seldom being the same thing. [Inevitably, perhaps unfortunately and sadly, in common parlance, Freemind == mindmapping.]
- e.g. Can be a bear to represent / maintain (additional) 'links'. (For lack of a better / correct term.)
mugrrrr wrote: talk about classical approach to mindmapping it has more of semantics in it. - I think you just made my point.
</flamewar>
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/holywar>
_BS_ wrote: It is.
How dare you insist on your point?!? We, classical adepts of classical mindmapping, will purge you with our distilled arguments and notions
What I'm saying it's not very difficult to implement mindmap integration into any outliner technically (or vice versa, as an example have a look at MindManager), its very essence is lost between in the lines. Clasically you are to take a pencil, a piece of paper and get down all your thoughts just in any form you like so it is not obligatory can be in a tree-from.
Alex
modified 10-Dec-13 6:45am.
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mugrrrr wrote:
_BS_ wrote: It is.
How dare you insist on your point?!? We, classical adepts of classical mindmapping, will purge you with our distilled arguments and notions
What I'm saying it's not very difficult to implement mindmap integration into any outliner technically (or vice versa, as an example have a look at MindManager), its very essence is lost between in the lines. Clasically you are to take a pencil, a piece of paper and get down all your thoughts just in any form you like so it is not obligatory can be in a tree-from.
Was that Greco, or Roman? How'd that work out for them? Where are they now? Where is Visicalc now?
Agreed on the form. Point being that's not how it got implemented, and people assume / associate that 'they did it the right way'.
- from what I've seen, good brainstorming can only really be done with a white board. And some poor sucker who has to render it in Freemind later. (Which I export to Freeplane, extract the treeview, <eeyyy>.)
So, completely agree with you, just I get all that I need out of a tree form, without all the work of the added bits. Mostly use notepad over Writer, too. And will only use plain text e-mail.
And absolutely agree YMMV, each to their own.
FONTS!?! Why in *MY* day we only needed one font! Green! Managers got Orange! Why them newbie's with Blue ... <sheesh!>
Please note, this represents EXPERIENCE. Not classical ... as that would be ANCIENT.
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_BS_ wrote: from what I've seen, good brainstorming can only really be done with a white board.
Agree. That's what we do actually.
_BS_ wrote: just I get all that I need out of a tree form, without all the work of the added bits.
Me too It's easier for me now to import my thoughts (Dan, what about adding "Thoughts" format into "Import tasks" menu? ) directly into TDL, but please keep it a secret so people'd not think I'm flaming .
Alex
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mugrrrr wrote: what about adding "Thoughts" format into "Import tasks" menu Cool, just give me the format
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That is exactly why I am asking about it... I agree that these are two consequent stages: (1) in an mind-mapping tool you generate and sort out the thoughts resulting to a structure of tasks - and here is what is missing in conventional mind-mapping tools - and it would be great to be able assign dates and priorities to tasks still at this stage when everything is laid out clearly and easily and then (2) to go to next stage and manage the tasks etc.
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IIRC, you already can in Freemind. Attrbutes.
And isn't there a query language to show, for example, overdue tasks?
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I also tend to create plans in Freemind or Freeplane, then import into TDL for the actual management of them. It is a one way trip though, unless Dan fixed this a while back. Reimporting creates a new set of tasks (i.e. duplicates).
Fundamentally, as I understand it, the underlying hierarchical file structures are essentially the same. So it is really all down to the interface and 'way of working'.
zajchap
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Freeplane, unlike Freemind, has a hierarchical view, if that's useful.
I wonder if a .csv export / import from that would be effective.
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Why? I have found importing into TDL works well from either, and TDL has sufficient exporting capabilities from there. Attributes are also so much easier to manage in TDL.
Freemind and Freeplane have essentially the same file structures. As you say, Freeplane has an additional hierarchical way of viewing the data.
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"It is a one way trip though,"
- for going t'other way.
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Each view, or way of working has its uses and benefits. Busan and DeBono amongst others talk about how you go about something affects how you think, and which parts of the brain are used. That is why doing brainstorming at a board, with e.g. post-its is supposed to work best. A criticism levelled against software based mind-mapping tools is that by their nature, they enforce structure and judgement too early in the process.
First get all ideas down, then sort/categorise, then prune.
But enough rambling. Freemind allows the addition of 'Attributes' to nodes. These attributes and their values can be filtered on. The interface isn't brilliant, but it works.
[Edit: And I am fairly sure TDL allows some if not all attributes to be carried over into the tasklist. It has been a long while since I have done this, so can't remember the details or vouch for how it is presently working.]
zajchapp
modified 10-Dec-13 6:11am.
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The main point is (and I hope everyone can agree to it) that a mind-map gives you more freedom and is much easier to work with in the 1st stage of planning (than the hierarchical list view, native to TDL).
And even though there are ways to assign attributes (dates, priorities) in FreeMind, (1) it is way too complicated to be practically usable (several mouse clicks for each) and (2) it is not easy to import them to TDL.
That is why I am asking for a mind mapping tool integrated inside of TDL...
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mrk001 wrote: it is way too complicated to be practically usable
Agree. Although I have done it in a few cases.
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"The main point is (and I hope everyone can agree to it) that a mind-map gives you more freedom and is much easier to work with in the 1st stage of planning (than the hierarchical list view, native to TDL)."
Absolutely not, and absolutely disagree.
For you, maybe. Not for many. And obviously few enough or it would have been done long ago.
"And even though there are ways to assign attributes (dates, priorities) in FreeMind, (1) it is way too complicated to be practically usable (several mouse clicks for each) and (2) it is not easy to import them to TDL."
What in the world makes you think it wouldn't be just as complicated in any TDL implementation, duplicating the work already done in Freemind, pointlessly. It's a different tool - use it over there.
What you are talking about is an enhancement to the Freemind structure, or rather a different view of its own internals, or a wholesale apply theirs on to TDL - at which point it wouldn't be TDL, so why weren't we all just using Freemind in the first place.
"That is why I am asking for a mind mapping tool integrated inside of TDL... Wink | "
The very point of TDL is non-GUI heavy. The very point of Freemind is GUI heavy.
The two will not meet. Not now, not ever. By the time Dan did such work, or enforced such work on people, TDL would stop seeing any use - why use it when it would become a Freemind clone, so why not just go use Freemind? What you are talking about is already so close to a full blown project manager app, that I expect it would be easier to pursue something already in keen use there, than to invert the very design principles that got TDL where it is today.
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You seem grumpy today.
_BS_ wrote: Absolutely not, and absolutely disagree.
Some people like lists, others like pictures. Some people like GUI, others like text.
There is no right answer.
But some ways of working suit certain processes better than others. Not saying TDL needs to emulate a mind-map though.
I know the detailed task / project lists I produce lose more people than they draw in. And for any team brainstorming, a white board is superior to any software solution.
zajchapp
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"Some people like lists, others like pictures. Some people like GUI, others like text.
There is no right answer. But some ways of working suit certain processes better than others."
I'm not disagreeing, I entirely agree. There is only a right answer for that person.
What the OP is talking about is a basic failure of Freemind, et al. The easy GUI interface of TDL - on top of the freemind data structures. It is not reasonable to suggest the other way around.
The guts of Freemind has all the fields and functionality of TDL already - just nobody's coded it. [Personally frustrated by that, myself. The attribute interface is just ...] Evidently not enough people are willing to throw resources at it - or it would be done.
In essence, the OP is suggesting a different view / GUI / interface to the Freemind structures already present.
Now, if Dan wanted to revamp TDL to use the Freemind data structures, and the two would be mutually respectful of the data, now you've got something, and both Dan and the user community would be able to leverage each other's work.
Assuming the Freemind structure is indeed a super-set of Dan's. If the data dictionary / ruleset were adhered to by both sides, I don't imagine this would be mindblowingly stupidly hard to do, and there could be quite a bit of benefit.
But this is all putting a decent GUI (clean, simple, keystroke driven) on top of Freemind, not gutting those principles to allow freehand drawing within TDL.
Please note I am not suggesting Freemind is mind mapping - merely that it is a graphical view of a tree structure. That is its implementation. And it's a good thing, for a lot of people - be it 'real' mind mapping or no.
I have a friend who could just not grok the tree structure. Even a notepad for a quick list of something, with levels indicated by '-'s. Give her the same thing, with a GUI, Freemind, and she's off to the races. She just cannot grok the textual only form - but she does agree the two representations are equivalent. But looking at the textual representation may as well be a blank piece of paper - she gets nothing out of it, and has nowhere to go with it. Put it in Freemind and her world snaps into focus and comprehension, and she is able to grasp what her next task is.
Dan would be able to leverage the surrounding bits of Freemind, graphical drawing / representation, reporting?, and Freemind would (finally) be able to leverage a quick - ram that list of sentences in, reorder, perhaps graphically, later.
But it would be TDL grafted on to Freemind, not the other way around.
To suggest otherwise is ... ill considered. (OK, maybe I am grumpy.)
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