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Visual studio enterprice architect is really cool.
I got my hands on it to learn C# and it's superb
There are loads of new features.
The things i like which might/mightnot have been in VS6
- Regions in your code which you can fold up so you don't see ALL your code.
- Auto completion (it's in VS6)
- GUI IDE is super
I've only recently jumped from JAVA to C-Sharp and VS .NET really helped.
The .net sdk framework documentation complements the whole thing.
I'd tell sceptics to get your hands on a copy and give it a go. It's only 7CDs 
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Wilhelm B wrote:
The .net sdk framework documentation complements the whole thing
That's exactly why I don't bother with Java, the documentation sucks.
To iterate is human, to recurse is devine.
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...I don't like the fact that you are forced to upgrade just to work with the latest version of the framework. I hope MS doesn't release a new _version_ of VS every time they upgrade the framework, I think VS should be able to work with multiple versions of the framework. I know the upgrade for VS 2003 is fairly cheap but we all know this should have really been a major SP for 2002.
McGiv
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After the hassles I've had with VS.NET 2002, I'm not keen on beta testing the next version of the product. But I am thrilled about the prosepect of getting the existing bugs fixed.
Does anyone know when the service pack for 2002 is supposed to be released?
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I think that 2003 IS the service pack for 2002. 
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If that's the case, it is sure very expensive! 
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Nope. Not me personally, not ever. But why not?
1) It costs way too much. I'm just a poor programmer with a mortgage. I simply can't afford MSDN or the newest compiler any more. What is MSDFN now? $1200 for the "pro" version?
2) It's got ".NET" in the title. Besides, look what they did to us with COM.
3) I haven't heard anything good about VS .NET 2002 yet (lots of complaints though). More ANSI compliance? Pfft, so what? It's not 100% ANSI compliance. MFC stuff based on STL? Pffft! So what. Give me separate utility classes that don't rely on all of MFC to be used, like CString and the collection classes (an added bonus would be classes that don't rely on STL either).
4) Being a C++ programmer, I see no viable reason to "upgrade". I don't do/need C# at home, and I absolutely refuse to require my users to utilize an overblown, bloated, slow-ass monolithic runtime DLL. If I wanted that "feature", I'd program in VB.
.NET is .CRAP from my viewpoint as a hobby programmer. Believe me - unless you make it inexpensive enough for the hobby programmer, fewer people will be writing code with it.
------- signature starts
"...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001
Please review the Legal Disclaimer in my bio.
------- signature ends
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Couldn't have said it better
¡El diablo está en mis pantalones! ¡Mire, mire!
Real Mentats use only 100% pure, unfooled around with Sapho Juice(tm)!
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John Simmons / outlaw programmer wrote:
.NET is .CRAP from my viewpoint as a hobby programmer. Believe me - unless you make it inexpensive enough for the hobby programmer, fewer people will be writing code with it.
Um..... isn't it free to program in .NET? I downloaded the SDK and a copy of SharpDevelop and I'm flying right along at home. For free. I would think that makes .NET great for the hobby programmer.
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Don't let the truth get in the way of a good rant! Besides, when you are so prejudiced against something from the start you don't tend to look around to see if your views are based. 
David Wulff
What the hell did I ever do to anyone?
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David Wulff ³ wrote:
when you are so prejudiced against something from the start you don't tend to look around to see if your views are based.
Hey! I resemble that remark!
Marc
Help! I'm an AI running around in someone's f*cked up universe simulator.
Sensitivity and ethnic diversity means celebrating difference, not hiding from it. - Christian Graus
Every line of code is a liability - Taka Muraoka
Microsoft deliberately adds arbitrary layers of complexity to make it difficult to deliver Windows features on non-Windows platforms--Microsoft's "Halloween files"
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David Wulff
What the hell did I ever do to anyone?
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You know nothing about C/C++, you have no idea why people said .NET is .CRAP, wait until one day your code can be reverted to source at finger tips, then probably you realize you are JUST A MS PUPPET.
"Don't let the truth get in the way of a good rant! Besides, when you are so prejudiced against something from the start you don't tend to look around to see if your views are based" - remember what you said. 
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Lol!! thanks for that.
I hate to don a Bill SerGio hat, but I can't think of any other way to put this across to someone like you...
I have been programming in C for nearly half my life and C++ almost as long, and in the last half decade years have made a fairly significant amount of the Queen's currency selling my C\C++ programming skills to companies around the world. They all seemed perfectly happy with my programming skills, in fact I have glowing recommendations from every single client I have ever worked on the behalf of. If you are in the b2b marketing sector in Western Europe there is a fair chance you may well be using an application I had a hand in, not to mention contributions to a small handful of class libraries that are used and acclaimed by some famous blue chip companies amongst many others.
But like I said, I don't like wearing Bill's hat because it chafes my skin to do so; money, praise and showing off is not why I choose to spend my life doing what I do. If it was I'd dance in strip clubs.
Not vast accomplishments, sure, but just so you know where you stand before trying to insult me in the future.
Yes I develop for Microsoft platforms using largely Microsoft tools, but then to ignore 98% + of the market I work for would be a foolish thing to do. I can either choose to be a jack of all trades and master none for the sake of that two percent, or I can choose to stick to where the money and future innovation is - I have no plans to end up an unemployed C programmer by thirty five, no matter how good I might be.
If you have been developing fixed-field client, server or mobile applications all your working life then I can forgive you for not understanding what .NET is about. If you are only going to be developing them for the rest of your working life than you can also be forgiven for not bothering to find out what it is about. If however you are simply jumping on the vocal minority bandwaggon because either you (a) have something against the way the this sector of the industry is heading, or (b) have an unfulfilled ego the size of Washington state, then read my quote again and see if it sinks in.
You however appeared to miss the emoticon indicating that I was poking fun at John, but as you quoted: "Don't let the truth get in the way of a good rant! Besides, when you are so prejudiced against something from the start you don't tend to look around to see if your views are based."
Yes I remember what I said. I say it to anybody who makes irrational statements, and I say it to myself at times too. Everybody needs to let off steam; the mistake is to let that get so out of hand you can't see through the condensation that builds up on the inside of your eyes.
David Wulff
What the hell did I ever do to anyone?
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That's how I'm doing it because:
1) I would never be able to afford VS .NET of MSDN Pro.
2) I have Windows 98 (plan to upgrade, but that may be a year or later from now.
I am contributing to SharpDevelop, and I hope to see it eventually be a proffesional-level IDE.
"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." - Jesus
"An eye for an eye only makes the whole world blind." - Mahatma Gandhi
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Right! and I paid ZERO dollars for ASP.NET Web Matrix! I was ripped I tell you! It's like pinging localhost/127.0.0.1 and getting "Request timed out"! 
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Amen! 
And I would add that people is forced to move to .NET only because it has become dependent on M$ stuff. They started this whole .NET thing (which I agree is totally crap) only to be the winning alternative to Java, and because they knew that people (developers) were dependent on their will.
So why did they change the help system, or the user interface, or anything else which is totally meaningless, if not to make you abandon VC6 and good old Windows 2000 and join them on the ship of XP and .NET?
They could at least use the new Windows XP look and feel, instead of that ugly Office XP style, with all those flat controls that you can't distinguish one from another! 
And they even called them with the same name: XP - hey, what an experience!
I could have accepted WinXP alone, but all this stuff together is just a nonsense. Or better, wait, it does have a sense to them: updating all the personal computers software all over the world means a lot of money... yeah, not only to them, there a few bucks even for those who will join them on the .NET crusade.
Maybe it's just a way to revitalize the IT market and the NASDAQ...
Well, I needed to say that. Now I feel better!
Paolo
------
Why spend 2 minutes doing it by hand when you can spend all night plus most of the following day writing a system to do it for you? - (Chris Maunder)
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Paolo Messina wrote:
And I would add that people is forced to move to .NET only because it has become dependent on M$ stuff.
You're right, people only move to .NET because of their Microsoft habit. Not because VB6 is obsolete, or because it costs 3 times as much to develop business apps in C++. Only because they are dependent on "M$ stuff". Not because .NET is revolutionary, or because it represents such a step forward in Windows development.
Paolo Messina wrote:
So why did they change the help system, or the user interface, or anything else which is totally meaningless
You're right. The help system, and most especially the UI, is totally meaningless. I hearken back to the days when computing was unencumbered by such meaningless, useless concepts like help systems and UIs. The technocracy was so much more favorable to engineers back then!
Paolo Messina wrote:
if not to make you abandon VC6 and good old Windows 2000 and join them on the ship of XP and .NET?
Ah yes, you make another point. All the millions of business developers who make up the primary market for .NET worldwide, who are all currently writing business software in C++ (not VB! not Java! Only C++!) and are writing for good "old" Windows 2000, are now forced at gunpoint to join Microsoft on the ship of XP and .NET! That's because a) Microsoft turned off VC++ from working overnight, using their master kill switch, and b) .NET only runs on XP, not on any other OS. Good point! I'm glad you said that!
Paolo Messina wrote:
Or better, wait, it does have a sense to them: updating all the personal computers software all over the world means a lot of money... yeah, not only to them, there a few bucks even for those who will join them on the .NET crusade.
And you, of course, are just in it for the carpal tunnel syndrome and the poor, lack-of-exercise induced physique. Not for the money.
Paolo Messina wrote:
Maybe it's just a way to revitalize the IT market and the NASDAQ...
All sarcasm aside, that is the single most intelligent thing you put in the entire message.
Thanks
Ron
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rondalescott wrote:
Not because .NET is revolutionary, or because it represents such a step forward in Windows development.
The Windows platform is what M$ decides it to be. The same happens for Windows development. Why will .NET win out and Java probably won't?
I admit there's a huge difference, Java is both a language and a platform, while .NET is just the second and you can use whatever language you like most. Who cares if they're both bytecode interpreters or virtual machines, if you like it most? You just have to buy a more powerful CPU, or better the whole machine, and you're just as fast as a 386 with Windows 3.11
Hey, but how could they sell you these 2+GHz CPUs otherwise?
See, I'm not saying this is wrong: this is how our world goes, I mean the IT industry. I'm just saying "I like where I am, thank you very much". There's already something "revolutionary": Linux. It's free and powerful, but that's the price to pay for good things. Ok, it's not user-friendly, so it's hard to build a business on it. It's surely not for the home users, not for everyday people, but that's the revolution.
I think everyone forgot about the KISS principle: Windows for the too many things he wants to put in a OS, Linux for the incomprehensible names he gives to things.
rondalescott wrote:
The help system, and most especially the UI, is totally meaningless
No, it's the change that is meaningless! Did you need HTML Help 2? Have you seen how buggy it is? Did you need another change in the UI Look and Feel? Is VS.NET compatible with Windows XP's look and feel? Don't they punch at each other?
They just had to justify, or "support" if you wish, the change.
rondalescott wrote:
Microsoft turned off VC++ from working overnight
Well, in the meanwhile you can't use the new Help system from inside the IDE...
rondalescott wrote:
.NET only runs on XP, not on any other OS
Some old Windows?
rondalescott wrote:
And you, of course, are just in it for the carpal tunnel syndrome and the poor, lack-of-exercise induced physique. Not for the money
Have you seen me naked?
I'm still a student of computer engineering, and thanks God, they tought us some criticism.
rondalescott wrote:
All sarcasm aside, that is the single most intelligent thing you put in the entire message
Thank you! Also because it's true!
Paolo
------
Why spend 2 minutes doing it by hand when you can spend all night plus most of the following day writing a system to do it for you? - (Chris Maunder)
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Thanks Colin!
That makes me feel better... now I know I'm not crazy, or at least we are two! 
Paolo
------
Why spend 2 minutes doing it by hand when you can spend all night plus most of the following day writing a system to do it for you? - (Chris Maunder)
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I agree. I will most likely never upgrade to .NET.
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IMHO: C# a poor attempt at bringing C++ to the VB masses
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C# is a good language, IMHO. Just wish there would also be a non-.NET version.
"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." - Jesus
"An eye for an eye only makes the whole world blind." - Mahatma Gandhi
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After going through the "how to do it", "where is the knowledge base article for this bug", "lets check the newsgroup" phase, which last lasted for 3 months, I decided that .NET was not for us. VC6 and win2k and even XP is good. But .NET platform has many bugs and is slow. 2 major reasons for not going there now.
I like C# more than C++. I wish it to work without .NET platform support. I like C# with garbage collection, without .h files, without IDL files, and the VB like references thing. C# definitely increases my productivity - but .NET bugs killed it all.
I will go back to C++.
It would be wonderful if the compiler preprocessor created the .h file for C++...
----------These are my personal remarks.
-sanju
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