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Sell what? Isn't the job seeker walking onto a jobsite with his resume in hand handing it to an employee for consideration by a business boss as risky a proposition to the job seeker as it is to the prospective employer?
And I'm unfamiliar with the lyric "you get what you pay for!" bite. Perhaps a Kelly Clarkson tune?
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Your Original Comment implied that getting paid in currency was a pure bonus above just getting in there to read the manuals. Unless I read it wrong.
So I meant if you could sell the concept of Free IT workers, I am buying 
As for the phrase "You get what you pay for". If you have not heard that phrase used before I am shocked, but I will explain it briefly.
A Guy walks in and offers to be a lead developer in the US. He has 10 years of programming experience, and he is willing to work for $12.00/hr (50% above minimum wage these days).
Do you think you are getting someone who is WORTH the $30-$50/hr going rate. Or one of the expensive guys who charge $75-$150/hr WORTH of programming and decision making?
I watched this happen. I watched him get hired. I watched the project crash and burn 8 months later, and the whole thing got scrapped. They got what they paid for. [Side Note: I warned the company. Only 1 of the 2 facts about the programmer should be true. He EITHER has 10 years of experience, OR he is willing to work for $12.00/hr... Not both!]
As to the risk of the relationship. More risk on the side of the employer. The employee pretty-well protected. Very easy to sue and win to get paid.
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Suit? You mean law suit?
Not getting hired, job seeker hits the pavement and is seen working on his ground game to this day.
Prospective employer hangs on to all the vital statistics he just "managed" to acquire by deceit/non-deceit and laughs in secure lock-down , well pay continues, twenty-stories-over-the-cement viewport cleaned. Was that Geronimo singing "NEXT"?
Oh, "suit"? Yeah. Bad idea showing up for that one with my beaver down.
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So I won't.
I'm expecting a little raise soon though
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I am over 65 and work for a .org... 'nuff said!
__________________
Lord, grant me the serenity to accept that there are some things I just can’t keep up with, the determination to keep up with the things I must keep up with, and the wisdom to find a good RSS feed from someone who keeps up with what I’d like to, but just don’t have the damn bandwidth to handle right now.
© 2009, Rex Hammock
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So on the one hand, I am not paid enough to deal with:
midnight tech support calls from, sigh, the tech support people
the stress induced by a complete lack of testing / QA infrastructure on the part of the company
etc.
On the other hand, I also think I'm ridiculously overpaid, if only because, quite frankly, I think teachers should be the highest paid professionals, period, not some shmuck lik me who writes ATM software for casinos where people who shouldn't be spending their money are wasting it, and people who do have gobs of money to waste are, well, wasting it.
On the gripping hand, I've also done some very rewarding work for other industries, and they tend to be non-profit or barely-profitable, so the pay reflects that. And interestingly, I'm a lot happier.
Marc
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I will disagree that ALL teachers should be paid so well...
First, it is our duty as a society to teach our children to read, and to write, and to love to learn.
They (unionized teachers) no longer teach "how to learn". The teach WHAT to learn.
Because if they teach "HOW" then the kids don't need them so much. You don't learn HOW to learn
until about college these days, and you only learn then because professors are USUALLY so bad at teaching anyways.
While we MUST value education. We currently pay near the TOP for the WORSE education system in 50 years! so I see no value in paying more for it.
Also, we do NOTHING to get the students to realize that they NEED the education. Hence the dropout rates.
My daughter is just starting to realize that she has to work 2 months to make what I can make in less than a day! (Admittedly she is part time, but the OMG was worth it!)
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Imagine the hordes of lowlies from China and India, or even Korea (Long hours is considered cool and heroic, like silicon valley but one third the wages) working low wages long hours for their Asian masters?
Problem with Chinaman is, everything is expressed in #hours you work. Doesn't matter if anything is achieved. So long everyone is suffering, like in old kungfu movies.
Next, Africa.
If you have problem with getting paid too much, try work for Asian masters.
dev
modified 10-Nov-15 11:47am.
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devvvy wrote: try work for Asian masters.
One of the rampant problems everywhere in the world is people treating other people like human beings, not human "resources." We have a lot of growing, as a species, to do, emotionally and psychologically.
Marc
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But it's all my fault.
22 years ago I went from being probably over paid in So. Cal to way under paid in a resort town off in the high snowy Rockies.
Now I have all this but not all that.
And were all hear cause were not all there!
Cute cabin though, Hi speed WiFi. Moose looking in the window, Labrador on the recliner couch next to me. Dear wife made cookies....
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then you are overpaid.. 
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Dear wife. There's your problem, should have got a cheap one
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but I think I am getting fairy / well paid.
I would like more, of course... let see how it goes.
M.D.V. 
If something has a solution... Why do we have to worry about?. If it has no solution... For what reason do we have to worry about?
Help me to understand what I'm saying, and I'll explain it better to you
Rating helpful answers is nice, but saying thanks can be even nicer.
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and hired, at least in terms of Computer Programming, an old man.
Actually - it's not that simple. I had a reason not to have "earned income" above a certain amount until a year or so ago.
So, not only am I really cute but I'm a bargain!
| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "As far as we know, our computer has never had an undetected error." - Weisert | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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I was hired, officially, as a "Java Developer". However, after a few weeks I realised that the title is irrelevant. Instead, we're expected to develop in multiple languages. As such, I've developed software in around 5 other programming languages.
I think developers should be paid relative to the complexity and value of the languages they're developing in, and the quality of the software they produce. Had I known I'd be writing a CLR library to bridge an under-documented .NET library with Java using JNI, I may have negotiated a little more money. The only reason I don't kick up a fuss is because the company is generous with progressive pay increases, and this is also my first development job, so I'm accruing experience (which is as much a requirement in industry now as having a degree or qualification.)
I believe the real question for this poll is: are you paid a salary or wage which is relatively close to what you expect your services, experience and time to be worth, compared to what your company believes?
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First:
I am still trainee I so yeah i won't get the money i deserve!
But jokes aside.
I have chosen to get into a company that pays good and with a tariff.
So from that side i feel totally comfty with it.
On the other side, this aint a IT company and i am developing stuff for (mostly) internal use, except from my current project i'd say i get paid enough. But currently i am one person that fills positions for a 10 headed dev team.
And i actually don't know if the final (when out of trainee) ~57k € +(~15-30% bonus if you are good) a year are a good payment.
got the number from this Attention direct download and in german[^]
Rules for the FOSW ![ ^]
if(this.signature != "")
{
MessageBox.Show("This is my signature: " + Environment.NewLine + signature);
}
else
{
MessageBox.Show("404-Signature not found");
}
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To buy a boat? ...nope
To buy a house with a swimming pool? ...nope
To buy a sports car? ...nope
To buy a new 50 inch 4K TV and spend the whole weekend drunk? ... HELL YEAH!!!
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From this point of view, we're paid enough
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No, not underpaid, just really bad at Googling 
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9$/hour for 160 hours/month. The advantage is that I get paid the same regardless of my productivity (which they try to keep as low as possible with idiotic policies) and I do not have to bring work at home or do extra time (it happened very rarely). Still it is very little - even considering that the maximum pay on average isn't much higher... My coworkers with 12 yeras of experience are paid 13$/hour. That's the market in Italy...
GCS d--- s-/++ a- C++++ U+++ P- L- E-- W++ N++ o+ K- w+++ O? M-- V? PS+ PE- Y+ PGP t++ 5? X R++ tv-- b+ DI+++ D++ G e++>+++ h--- ++>+++ y+++* Weapons extension: ma- k++ F+2 X
If you think 'goto' is evil, try writing an Assembly program without JMP. -- TNCaver
"When you have eliminated the JavaScript, whatever remains must be an empty page." -- Mike Hankey
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I don't know what $9/hr gets you in Italy, but that just above the minimum legal wage in many parts of the US (soon it will below it). It's considered a status of "working poor".
You'd actually do better, starting salary, at a grocery chain like Trader Joes, or CostCo.
Say - you're in the Euro Zone - why not migrate to where they'll pay you enough to live on?
| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "As far as we know, our computer has never had an undetected error." - Weisert | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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It grants me a wage just above the average worker, I get 1300 €/month instead of the average 900-1000. It's just enough to maintain two people, having found an EXTREMELY convenient rent (about half the average with a bigger house... plain luck) and having already a car (which is a 17 years old econonmy car) and have 200 € / month left.
W∴ Balboos wrote:
Say - you're in the Euro Zone - why not migrate to where they'll pay you enough to live on?
Easier said than done, EU countries are starting to blockade the influx of Italian technicians because we accept lower salaries than our counterparts. It's fairly tough to find jobs in other countries, and I'm not fond of the idea of moving before having found a job, like many people of my age - I saw many of them returning home with nothing there and nothing here.
When my girlfriend will graduate and hopefully find a job we'll breath much better. Anyway mine is the kind of lucky situation in Italy, at least I am hired (will be on January 7th) and not contract working for 3 month a time - which requires opening an individual company and costs roughly 60% of the revenues in taxes.
GCS d--- s-/++ a- C++++ U+++ P- L- E-- W++ N++ o+ K- w+++ O? M-- V? PS+ PE- Y+ PGP t++ 5? X R++ tv-- b+ DI+++ D++ G e++>+++ h--- ++>+++ y+++* Weapons extension: ma- k++ F+2 X
If you think 'goto' is evil, try writing an Assembly program without JMP. -- TNCaver
"When you have eliminated the JavaScript, whatever remains must be an empty page." -- Mike Hankey
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Plenty of jobs in UK and Ireland in IT, unless your english is very bad you wouldn't have a problem finding a job in these countries.
I live in Dublin and I can ensure you that it's easy for a software developer to find a job here, there is a big lack of software developers. Local recruitment agencies are even organising events in other countries such as Portugal, Spain, Italy etc trying to attract talented professionals.
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