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Re: install shileld Tom Clement24-Feb-04 19:52 Tom Clement 24-Feb-04 19:52  I'll second that one. I used InstallShield for a fairly complex installation problem, and found more bugs than I have ever seen in a product. Nerves, gray hair and a hell of a lot of anger at the company that subjected me to it. With any complex product, there will be difficulties and pitfalls, but when 80% of the problems you encounter turning out to be a result of bugs they haven't acknowledged, it starts to piss you off. I ended up using it almost exclusively for installing the files and wrote a configuration utility that launched after it finished that did all the heavy lifting. You just couldn't trust it. I will never use that product again. It boggles the mind that they have been able to stay in business. Tom Clement Apptero, Inc. P.S. Ask me how I really feel. Re: install shileld John M. Drescher25-Feb-04 4:06 John M. Drescher 25-Feb-04 4:06  This version just plain sucks. Try innosetup. www.innosetup.org[^] John Install == EVIL! Michael Dunn23-Feb-04 10:32 Michael Dunn 23-Feb-04 10:32  We are using the nastyness that is InstallShield. Install is the worst and least-rewarding type of dev work. It's no fun, and if you make any little mistakes it can make the whole thing blow up in spectacular fashion, possibly taking out some system files with the splash damage. --Mike-- Personal stuff:: Ericahist | Homepage Shareware stuff:: 1ClickPicGrabber | RightClick-Encrypt CP stuff:: CP SearchBar v2.0.2 | C++ Forum FAQ You cannot stop me with paramecium alone! Re: Install == EVIL! Ian Darling23-Feb-04 13:00 Ian Darling 23-Feb-04 13:00  Michael Dunn wrote: We are using the nastyness that is InstallShield A (happily) decreasing amount of stuff here is done through the VB Package And Deployment Wizard (yes, I put that in) - the most brain dead install software I've ever used. I managed to persuade the boss (after fighting the wizard for a day, as it kept totally f***ing up the dependencies of this large project) that the Visual Studio .NET installer tools were at least usable, and I'd get the installer for this large project done in something less than a day and the loss of my not inconsiderable amount of hair Ian Darling "The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt." - Bertrand Russell Re: Install == EVIL! Jon Sagara23-Feb-04 21:34 Jon Sagara 23-Feb-04 21:34  But if you do it well, you have great job security. Nope, I'm not the installer guy, but I bet the guy who is would NOT be the first one they let go in lean times. Jon Sagara Vegetarianism is unhealthy. Humans need protein, and lots of it. Put down those sprouts and pick up a T-bone! -- Michael Moore Latest Article: Breadcrumbs in ASP.NET Re: Install == EVIL! Ed Preston24-Feb-04 18:07 Ed Preston 24-Feb-04 18:07  I am the install guy and I really like InstallShield. Re: Install == EVIL! perlbot25-Feb-04 7:01 perlbot 25-Feb-04 7:01  Wrong --- my last development position was managing the installation for a cross-platform JAVA/GUI App. 'Cause I did it so well (after developing it, I integrated the whole package generation into the regular daily build), they figured they didn't need my services anymore. I was the first lay-off.... My advice for installation developers: don't quit your day job Re: Install == EVIL! Ed Preston24-Feb-04 19:01 Ed Preston 24-Feb-04 19:01  That said, I do not understand why people do not apply more effort to the task of building the distribution units. It is the customer’s first experience with a product. If the installation facility falls to its knees, what is the perception of the rest of the product? Michael Dunn wrote: Install is the worst and least-rewarding type of dev work. It's no fun, ... I can see what you mean. Consider that the installation developer has the opportunity to see which “macro” strategies really do make the product easy to maintain, support, and deploy. Michael Dunn wrote: ... blow up in spectacular fashion, possibly taking out some system files ... Take a look at Windows File Protection and the Windows Installer Service. These two facilities on modern Windows systems have made resource contention a thing of the past. Windows File Protection covers the most common case where this can occur. Further, you might be impressed with the transacted state and file versioning rules of Windows Installer to cover the other side of the coin. Michael Dunn wrote: using the nastyness that is InstallShield I feel the same way sometimes. Then again, I feel the same way about my compiler now and again. It always seems to comes back to the usage of the tool. I like the adage "Use the tool, don't trust the tool." Meaning, know what your tool does and how it does it, before you use it. Trust me; if you had to do it everyday, you would want InstallShield. "A good plan is short on vision and long on detail." - Lou Gerstner Re: Install == EVIL! Don Kackman25-Feb-04 4:30 Don Kackman 25-Feb-04 4:30  Ed Preston wrote: That said, I do not understand why people do not apply more effort to the task of building the distribution units. It is the customer’s first experience with a product. If the installation facility falls to its knees, what is the perception of the rest of the product? I couldn't agree more. I'll go one further and say that the old model of having a "Installer Developer" (that poor sap that has to deal with all of the dependencies at the last minute) is obsolete. On the project I'm working on, we've architected things such that each "logical package" has a VS.NET solution with all of the assembly projects as well as a merge module project. The enigneer(s) responsible for developing a package are also responsible for managing its deployment. Creating the installer is just a little bit of GUI sugar on top of a collection of merge modules. Breaking the installer now has the same conotation as breaking the build: the engineer who did it is responsible for fixing it. This has worked really well for us (Plus since I've often been the poor sap who develops the installer, makes me a much happier camper). Re: Install == EVIL! Ed Preston28-Feb-04 3:52 Ed Preston 28-Feb-04 3:52  Here is a link with more details on Windows File Protection. http://www.microsoft.com/windows2000/techenthusiast/features/wfp.asp IS & NSIS Shog923-Feb-04 8:46 Shog9 23-Feb-04 8:46  Continuing with the "need multiple choice" theme... Our primary installers are InstallShield-based. Somewhat old, somewhat creaky scripted ones. I don't write these. I did, however, just finish an update installer using NSIS. It is a joy to work with, i must say. Like PHP, but for installers. --- the work, which will become a new genre unto itself, will be called... Re: IS & NSIS Trickster23-Feb-04 11:15 Trickster 23-Feb-04 11:15  Shog9 wrote: It is a joy to work with, i must say. Like PHP, but for installers. Thank god there is stuff like PHP around MSI and NSIS for me. Clean Programming Under Difficult Circumstances Boith Installshield Bamaco223-Feb-04 8:37 Bamaco2 23-Feb-04 8:37  I use installshield with a combo of scripts and MSI. Scripts for those things that I must control on my own. MSI to install those packages like MSDE 2000. If I could live w/o MSI, I would. To me, MSI sounds like a perfect example of how Microsoft jumping into the arena and providing yet another extra complication in my life. Various and none Roger Allen23-Feb-04 5:51 Roger Allen 23-Feb-04 5:51  This poll should really have been multiple selection. We have used/still use at least 3 on the list and have written our own installer in the past - for W3.1 Currently using InstallShield, its giving us a real headache with some components. Doesn't install fonts correctly , fails to register some services, cannot script the repair option etc. Doesn't report problems when they occur. So we aim to build all this into our own software in future. So we will eventaully use none... Roger Allen - Sonork 100.10016 Roger Wright: Remember to buckle up, please, and encourage your friends to do the same. It's not just about saving your life, but saving the quality of life for those you may leave behind... Re: Various and none heXor25-Feb-04 8:05 heXor 25-Feb-04 8:05  Try to use NSIS. You will not regret it. Yay! Gavin Greig23-Feb-04 4:21 Gavin Greig 23-Feb-04 4:21  Suggestion and first vote! I can die happy now. Thanks Chris. Gavin Greig "Haw, you're no deid," girned Charon. "Get aff ma boat or ah'll report ye." Matthew Fitt - The Hoose O Haivers: The Twelve Trauchles O Heracles. Re: Yay! Davy Mitchell23-Feb-04 4:59 Davy Mitchell 23-Feb-04 4:59  Missing option : [ ] Cornflakes box and a paperpunch Davy My Personal Blog - Homepage. Scottish News - Angus Blog, Perth Blog and Dundee Blog Re: Yay! Roger Allen23-Feb-04 5:47 Roger Allen 23-Feb-04 5:47  Incoming missle on target with attached Roger Allen - Sonork 100.10016 Roger Wright: Remember to buckle up, please, and encourage your friends to do the same. It's not just about saving your life, but saving the quality of life for those you may leave behind...

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